/christian/ - christian

十字架に力を✝️

Index Catalog Archive Bottom Refresh
Options
Subject
Message

Max message length: 12000

files

Max file size: 32.00 MB

Total max file size: 50.00 MB

Max files: 5

Supported file types: GIF, JPG, PNG, WebM, OGG, and more

E-mail
Password

(used to delete files and posts)

Misc

Remember to follow the Rules

The backup domains are located at 8chan.se and 8chan.cc. TOR access can be found here, or you can access the TOR portal from the clearnet at Redchannit 3.0.

US Election Thread

8chan.moe is a hobby project with no affiliation whatsoever to the administration of any other "8chan" site, past or present.

Anonymous 01/05/2023 (Thu) 08:04:31 Id: a39dc1 No. 239
Help me debunk this. >Blomberg starts in on the question of gospel authorship: It's important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous. But the uniform testimony of the early church was that Matthew, also known as Levi, the tax-collector and one of the twelve disciples, was the author of the first gospel in the New Testament; that John Mark, a companion of Peter, was the author of the gospel we call Mark; and that Luke, known as Paul's 'beloved physician,' wrote both the gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles . . . There are no known competitors for [authorship of] these three gospels ... Apparently, it was just not in dispute.7 >Blomberg imagines that the whole delegation was polled, and that no one had any other guesses as to who wrote these gospels. But we don't have everyone's opinions. We are lucky to have what fragments we do that survived the efforts of Orthodox censors and heresiologists to stamp out all 'heretical' opinions. However, we do know of a few differing opinions because Tertullian, Justin Martyr, and others had to take the trouble to (try to) refute them. Marcion knew our Gospel of Luke in a shorter form, which he considered to be the original, and he did not identify it as the work of Luke. He may have imagined that Paul wrote that version. Also, though Blomberg does not see fit to mention it, Papias sought to account for apparent Marcionite elements in the Gospel of John by suggesting Marcion had worked as John's secretary and scribe and added his own ideas to the text, which it was somehow too late for John to root out.8 Similarly, some understood the gospel to be Gnostic (rightly, I think) and credited it to Cerinthus. Blomberg reasons that, had the gospel authorship ascriptions been artificial, better names would have been chosen. >[T]hese were unlikely characters ... Mark and Luke weren't even among the twelve disciples. Matthew was, but as a former hated tax collector, he would have been among the most infamous character next to Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus! Contrast this with what happened when the fanciful apocryphal gospels were written much later. People chose the names of well-known and exemplary figures to be their fictitious authors - Philip, Peter, Mary, James. Those names carried a lot more weight than the names of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. So to answer your question, there would not have been any reason to attribute authorship to these three less respected people if it weren't true.9 In fact, apocryphal (which only means 'not on the official list' for whatever reason) gospels are attributed to such luminaries as Bartholomew, Judas Iscariot, the prostitute Mary Magdalene, doubting Thomas, the heretical Basilides, the even more heretical Valentinus, Nicodemus, and the replacement Matthias. They didn't always go for the star names. > As for the names to whom the canonical gospels were ascribed, it is quite easy to provide an alternate and more natural explanation as to why we have two apostolic names and two sub-apostolic names, though we can bet neither Blomberg nor Strobel will like it very much. First, the initially anonymous gospel we call Matthew was clearly the early church's favorite, and sometimes it circulated without any individual's name, as in its redacted Hebrew and Aramaic versions known to the Church Fathers as the Gospel according to the Hebrews, the Gospel according to the Nazoreans, and the Gospel according to the Ebionites. There are more copies of Matthew that survive in manuscript than any of the other gospels, which means it was used more, much more. The reason for its popularity was its utility: it is framed as a new Christian Pentateuch, organizing Jesus' teaching into five great blocks of teaching, more or less topically. It had been written for the Jewish Christian missionaries of Antioch (in view under the characters of the eleven in Matthew 28, receiving the Great Commission) to use as a church manual. And it served that purpose very well. If your goal was to "disciple the nations," this was the book to use. My guess is that some editor tagged the gospel ' Matthew' based on a pun on the Greek word for 'disciple,' especially prominent in this gospel (e.g., 13:51-52; 28: 19): mathetes. Mark. and Luke are not organized so conveniently. If you have chosen Matthew as your standard, then Luke and Mark are going to suffer by comparison (though no one could deny their great value). And in the early days, before they were considered inspired scriptures, people felt they could make value judgments and rank the gospels. Matthew was the first tier, all by itself. Mark and Luke were placed on the second tier - 'deuterocanonical gospels' so to speak. And that is why these sub­ apostolic names were chosen for them (likely by Poly carp ).10 It is a way of damning them with only faint praise, but not damning them too severely at that. Insofar as they vary from Matthew, they are not quite apostolic. What about the very different John? (Blomberg admits it is quite different; it just doesn't mean anything to him. >They're all eyewitness reporting anyway!)11 It is so different from the others, one would expect it to be named for someone even farther from the apostles. And so it was. The opponents of the Gospel of John, who recognized its largely Gnostic character, claimed it was the work of the heretic Cerinthus. As Bultmann showed, the text has undergone quite a bit of refitting in order to build in some sacramental theology as well as traditionally futuristic eschatology.12 Gnostics rejected both, and so did 'John' originally, though such passages are now diluted by added material. Polycarp (or someone like him) dubbed the newly sanitized gospel John, intending the apostolic name as a counterblast against the charge that the book was heretical and thus should remain outside the canon. This is exactly the same sort of overcompensation we see in the same time period among Jews who debated the canonicity of the racy Song of Solomon (Song of Songs, Canticles, etc.). The book does not mention God. It seems to embody old liturgies of Tammuz and Ishtar, and it is sexually explicit. Thus some pious rabbis thought it had no business being considered scripture. The response was to declare it an allegory of the divine love for Israel and to make it especially sacred: "The whole Torah is Holy, but The Song of Songs is the Holy of Holies" (Rabbi Akiba). So you think it is profane, do you? Well, in that case: it's especially holy! In the same way a gospel suspected to be Cerinthian becomes a second fully apostolic gospel. Blomberg is as captive to the scribal traditions of his community as the ancient rabbis were when they named Moses as the author of the Pentateuch and the Book of Job: And interestingly, John is the only gospel about which there is some question about authorship . . . The name of the author isn't in doubt- it's certainly John . . . The question is whether it was John the apostle or a different John.13 It's certainly John? Blomberg's exegesis is narrowly sectarian and insular, almost as if we were reading Mormon or Jehovah's Witness scholarship. To anyone even vaguely familiar with modem New Testament scholarship Blomberg's claims are startlingly off-base. If you take a poll of Sunday School teachers and fundamentalist Bible Institute faculty, you will no doubt come up with such a conclusion. But among real scholars, conservative and liberal, the authorship question, as with the closely-related question ofthe identity ofthis gospel's 'Beloved Disciple' character, is wide open. And as for this business about John the son of Zebedee versus another John, this is all derived from Eusebius' remarks on the famous Papias passage, just below, in which Eusebius imagined he saw mention of two different Johns, the apostle John and the Elder John.
>>239 >It's important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous No, that's wrong right from the start. The writer of John says he was a direct disciple of Jesus, Luke says he's the same person as the writer of Acts who claims to have been a travel companion with Paul and yes everyone and their mum has always said Matthew was the one who wrote his Gospel, and Mark his. I don't feel like there's any wiggle room to debate or even claim that the Gospels are just random anonymous documents when they clearly aren't. Matthew doesn't name himself because why would he it's not about him. Only John lets everyone know who he is and only somewhat why? Because it was written much later when authority needed to be established. In the early days after Jesus you didn't really need authority so much and receipts to prove you knew what you were talking about the event just happened a generation ago. >Marcion Not a christian so has nothing to do with anything, basically the first mormon/muslim/jehovah's witness. What's the point of believing the one crazy man over the narrative of everything we actually do have. >Papias sought to account for apparent Marcionite elements in the Gospel of John I don't know where this is coming from. This doesn't really make sense with the timeline nor any of the surviving tiny fragments from Papias. >As for the names to whom the canonical gospels were ascribed, it is quite easy to provide an alternate and more natural explanation Then proceeds to not give any sort of natural explanation. >the initially anonymous gospel we call Matthew What do you mean initially? Has the Gospel changed at all? Matthew still doesn't claim to be the author in it, no one claims to be the author of it. The earliest records always say that it was Matthew, what more is there to discuss. Obviously it was targeted towards Jews because it was written probably before gentiles were even really coming into the church. It's not a "church manual" what the heck? It hardly talks about church structure or anything at all. The Didache is a church manual. Matthew is clearly trying to recount simply real history. This person also randomly makes claims about the Hebrew version of Matthew and the Gospel of the Hebrews and Nazoreans and Ebionites this is not a settled discussion at all what the Hebrew Matthew looked like or by what names it's referred to and all that. >My guess is that some editor tagged the gospel ' Matthew' based on a pun on the Greek word for 'disciple,' especially prominent in this gospel (e.g., 13:51-52; 28: 19) ... right so this is what we should believe instead, okay. He references two places where the word "mathéteuó" is used which means discipling not disciple but yes the word disciple is "mathētēs" which sounds like Matthew therefore that's why I guess right. The word "mathētēs" is used 269 times in the New Testament, 74 times in Matthew, 81 times in John. How about "It was named Matthew because it uses the name Matthew twice whereas Mark and Luke use it once and it uses the name Matthew when it tells his story of him meeting Jesus" That's the same level of stupidity we're dealing with I think my conclusion has just as much weight. The name Levi isn't even used in Matthew's Gospel, what does that mean? Matthew mentions himself less than Luke mentions him. What does that mean? NOTHING. What a bunch of garbage. "The Greek word for disciple sounds like Matthew therefore that's how the Gospel was attributed to Matthew because osme random funny epic maymay editor changed all of history with his one edit some day and it just lived on to the end of the first century when Papias mentions the Gospel of Matthew." Give me a break. >And that is why these sub­ apostolic names were chosen for them (likely by Poly carp ). WHAT? What a claim! What a play. Yeah just say random stuff. Maybe Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke because that's obviously who wrote it. >Gospel of John is totally a fraaaaud [paraphrased] Okay, first off the writer of the Gospel of John is the same writer as the rest of John's stuff in the New Testament let's make that clear, it has all the same style and ideas. The obsession of Jesus and the Word being one of the obvious themes which is something John learned during his revelation experience. So when you say the Gospel of John is fake which WOW that would genuinely be the biggest trick ever played I mean, I can get into it, but it's a lot to get into why the Gospel of John is obviously not written by Cerinthian and yes people didn't just reject John's Gospel, many people rejected all of John's stuff because it was a very late addition 60 years after Jesus, it was hard to swallow for some people, "tradition" had already begun. So some people didn't like his account. What exactly is the argument though, is the point to say that John wasn't a real disciple like he claimed? What is the overall argument. >But among real scholars I would just ignore anyone who attempts pathetically to push his opinions this way. This person has a lot of ideas he's made up but it goes against the obvious truth and what has always been reported as true and what the texts themselves say so I think he needs a little more than this nonsense.
(3.50 MB 240x232 pray.gif)

Also the idea that an editor just put Matthew's name on the Gospel as a pun to the word disciple.... but this person like all atheists constantly mentions that "The Gospels didn't have the names of the author on them to begin with!" Okay, so did this hilarious funny pun lover do this in the 4th century? But the Gospel of Matthew was attributed to him long before then. So make up your mind, please explain because this person said THIS IS HIS THEORY, so it's kind of important I would like to understand this theory better, when did this edit happen and how did it spread. And why is something so important reduced to a pun, were ancient people just really funny or is So please email the author and get back to me I'd love more detail on this. I'd love to know also the process of Polycarp choosing the names for Luke and Mark and why Luke simply can't be the author despite that being the obvious choice.
(815.01 KB 1616x1936 Untitled.png)

>>241 He has a website http://robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ and there is says to email him "criticus at mindvendor.com" but when you go it's like some gnostic page with the Aleister Crowley Thelema symbol in the title. Either way, thanks for the reply.
>>242 Oh yes that is certainly his website I can tell. He's just another zeitgeist guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdNZtduV2AY These are some videos for the Gospel of John https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwOSGW6H-cI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnSCOg-0xJg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzRwsDDGEOY And people can look up similarities and proof all the John documents in the New Testament were written by the same person and one thing I think is interesting is the fact John is obsessed with Jesus being the Word and yet Jesus never says he is the Word in John's Gospel despite saying "I am ___" to many other titles and I think the only reason Jesus doesn't say that is because John never heard him say that. John only wrote what he heard Jesus say. Also it's ridiculous to think John could make Jesus say stuff that no one had ever heard before. John's entire life he would have been retelling those three years with Jesus for 60 years it was mundane to him by time he wrote it down and Christians would not have accepted it if it was completely out of left field or he had no authenticity as is proved by the rejection of the many many fake Gospels and even the many Gospels that have not survived which Luke mentioned way back before even John's. And Jesus really doesn't say all that much new and certainly not different. John's Gospel is written much later than the first three and it is after the destruction of Jerusalem. The world and situation is very different. For example atheists DEMAND that Luke especially must have been written after 70 AD since in Luke the destruction of 70 AD is so well prophetised. Yet John who almost everyone agrees was written after 70 AD doesn't mention the 70 AD prophesy at all. Why? Because it already happened, there was no point to mention the olivet discourse unlike the three other Gospels. It would be stupid to try to say someone predicted something after it happened, despite what atheists believe ancient people weren't actually mindlessly retarded. If Luke came along and said "See Jesus predicted this would happen" while not a single other person ever recorded or mentioned Jesus saying this before and it was also after the event, people would say "Screw off! You think we're stupid?" John didn't just make brand new stuff up never heard before by him or anyone else after 60 years of Christianity. You don't get away with that. Something interesting to me is the fact the Gospels probably were not very important at first. Luke wrote his to just one guy, same with Acts. In the early years there was probably little reason for writing things down. Because this was all real major events everyone was hearing about and thousands of eye witnesses were all over the place and the teachings a lot of what Jesus said came from the old testament you can orally give his teaching and the events and that's something I think is important. As the second church generation came to a close the writings were all the assembly really had, you get that feeling in Hebrews when even at that point in the late 60s the author is saying hold on to what the initial disciples and apostles said. And that is something you sense sometimes from Paul's letters the importance of oral tradition and teaching. As if it's secret knowledge sometimes when Paul says to hold fast to the traditions and when he comes by he'll teach this and that. I have a feeling a lot of the more blunt and serious claims of Jesus were only said in John because it was dangerous stuff to be saying and even writing down that God and him are one and these sorts of things.
>>240 >>243 That's what I like to see brother.
Going to add this new video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7VOKlJyuww The point he makes at the end of the video is insane. I never even thought about that. It absolutely kills it. I'm so sick of atheist self-proclaimed "Biblical scholars" thinking they know anything. I wish he would get into the ridiculous argument about Mark being written first which goes against all evidence and the idea that the Gospels copy each other "Paragraphs are copied" I've tried to find any evidence of this, never have. When the Gospels describe the same events they use different Greek words they use different orders they use different descriptions, almost as if the source they're all using is: reality. A real event. The point is simple: If the authorships of the Gospels was invented later but the Gospels existed beforehand for many decades, then why aren't there more candidates for authorship like the Letter of Hebrews. If someone randomly decided Matthew wrote Matthew, why didn't other people randomly decide Matthew was written by any number of other people. Why wasn't there endless debate about who wrote what, because everyone already knew and by the end of the century they started giving the title to the names of the people who they knew wrote these things. And obviously the authors weren't interested in much credit because why would they be, they're not making up stories to be famous, they're humble disciples of Jesus who also don't want to be tracked down and stoned.
>>239 >We are lucky to have what fragments we do that survived the efforts of Orthodox censors and heresiologists to stamp out all 'heretical' opinions. That's bullshit. After the Fall of Rome, the different monasteries across Europe (Mostly the Irish) began hunting down, and recording every single piece of material that they could get their hands on. >Similarly, some understood the gospel to be Gnostic (rightly, I think) and credited it to Cerinthus. That's bullshit, too. Gnosticism is built upon the idea that God is a demon who kicked man out of Eden into this "prison" of a world that he created because God was hateful towards man, and he isn't really the God. It's completely in conflict with Christianity. >Mark. and Luke are not organized so conveniently Because they were written by different people with different viewpoints? >What about the very different John? John was the latest book written. IIRC, around the time the Romans sacked Jerusalem. >But among real scholars So, this entire article is all nothing but bullshit being spouted by people who are high off their own bullshit. >>240 >Obviously it was targeted towards Jews because it was written probably before gentiles were even really coming into the church. So back when Christianity was a heresy, and Saul was slaughtering converts left and right. >How about "It was named Matthew because it uses the name Matthew twice whereas Mark and Luke use it once and it uses the name Matthew when it tells his story of him meeting Jesus" It could also be that Matthew got his name because he was a disciple. That's how many last names were formed during the Middle Ages. >>243 >He's just another zeitgeist guy Weren't those the morons trying to start up a cult back in the Aughts?
>>389 >Because they were written by different people with different viewpoints? That is something to notice about unbelievers' attacks on the bible it's damned if you do damned if you don't, if the gospels are similar to each other then that apparently means they're just copying from each other and there's no eyewitness testimony, and if they're different from each other then that means they're just editing each other and there's no eyewitness testimony
>>393 What's also annoying is the assumption that absolutely no one, in the past two millennia, ever questioned if the text in the Bible is genuine. Hell, that was part of the point behind Constantine demanding fifty Bibles, and the Council of Laodicea. In the former, he wanted to distribute Christ's genuine gospel for the people to read and learn. And, the latter was even the bishops of the time doubting if what they read was genuine and taking it upon themselves, for several decades, to read through all of the different texts proclaiming to be the the words of Christ and his disciples. Trying to find the originals, the copies, the condensed, and the forgeries/heretical fakes. And, definitively declare which books are canon and which are not. Was the processes absolutely perfect? No, as evidenced by the schisms that happened with the Eastern churches, and later bishops questioning the decisions made. However, that's ironically the Bible's strength. People were always able to question the authenticity of what was written, and able to take it upon themselves to discover if what was written was the genuine article (Even more so today given how widely and easily available the manuscripts are).


Forms
Delete
Report
Quick Reply