>>85 Coffee addicted hands wrote this post.

>>85 Well, she did get lost in space.

>I don't want to die! >Sorry, buddy, but this is just a regular dilemma of the week episode. We have to restore the status quo. This episode really kicked off the "Janeway is a psychopath" meme. And they didn't even do much with the idea that Voyager was nominally in desperate straits and the crew would have to be more flexible morally. Except in cases like these, where it's gratuitous.

>>85 Tuvok and Neelix were both as of the moment of combination "dead" Separating Tuvix was akin to murdering a man to resurrect two (and a flower) I would not call it a moral choice, and if I'm remembering the episode right then it wasn't even really a practical choice. Tuvix was better than either man alone, and Neelix was basically useless for anything but his delta quadrant knowledge anyway. He wasn't even a good chef, for God's sake They could have easily made the scenario way more ethically ambiguous, like needing the two to seperate in a time of crisis. Would have been less memorable perhaps, but having the crew just think he was gross and stand idly by while the captain marched him to his death makes nobody look good We didn't even get to hear Neelix and Tuvok's opinion on the matter, which was a huge waste of intrigue As it stands, it's a huge black mark on a series I think usually aligns fairly well with my morals Voyager sucks BTW, I couldn't stand to watch much past the borg plotline

1. Janeway didn't get lost in space. They knew exactly where they were at all times. Janeway made a decision to displace her ship's position in order to save a planet full of people. Hero. 2. Tuvix was not killed. In fact Tuvix was never a real person. "Tuvix" was simply Neelix and Tuvok mashed together. At no time did "Tuvix" ever display any behavior separate from Neelix and Tuvok. Janeway simply pulled them apart. >Tuvix was better than either man alone You did not watch the episode or Voyager at all for that matter. Tuvix was the exact opposite of your statement. Thank you for exposing your own lies.

>>123 Retard Janeway and literally everyone else including the writers seemed to have thought he was his own unique organism. Janeway shudders as she walks away, clearly feeling guilt if not horror at what she did I'm looking at plot summaries and I'm not seeing any evidence of Tuvix being worse than Tuvok (Neelix is worthless, and need not be mentioned). I'm not going to rewatch a bad episode of a show I didn't like to prove it definitively, so maybe I'm just missing something How was he worse?

>>123 >Tuvix was not killed. In fact Tuvix was never a real person. Oof. Imagine being marched to your death with this argument. "You're not a real person because we remember the other two people! You're just a mashup!" I'm reminded of that DS9 episode where Odo arrests a guy who tried to frame him saying "killing your own clone is still murder". Which, you know, it *is* -- not just legally, but morally. Imagine telling the clone he's not a real person because he "never displayed any behavior separate from the original". And that's a clone, a literal copy of one person. Tuvix was a non-trivial combination of two people. If anything, they could've improved on the story by just saying that whoopsie-toodles, Tuvix is unstable and it's either dying a painful death on his own or doing an emergency separation (maybe he tries to hide the fact that he's breaking down initially, to add to the drama -- he doesn't want to go, but there's no alternative). And if they *really* wanted to end on a positive note, Neelix would have sadly died in this procedure.

>>124 You never watched the episode nor Voyager. Don't comment again. Final warning. >>125 Tuvix is literally just Neelix and Tuvok in the same body with a jumbled mind. No one died, they were just separated. Name one unique trait Tuvix had. You can't.

>>125 Forgot to add: Your clone example is stupid. A clone is a separate organism born from the same genes. Like a twin. Tuvix was not. Tuvix was a literal transporter fusion of two people into one body. Not equivalent.

>>126 Here's a unique trait: he called himself Tuvix and pleaded for his life, which neither Neelix nor Tuvok did -- if only because they never had reason to. You seem hell-bent on defining personhood in terms of what you think qualifies as "sufficiently unique" to an external observer, instead of, you know, the needs, wants and opinions of the actual person. My clone example wasn't meant to give you a reason to say "but that's not exactly the same thing" but to make you think about how your criterion of "no unique trait" could be applied in other situations and would be equally invalid. Sci-fi clone rules often give us clones that aren't just genetically identical, but with the original's memories too (ENT had an episode like that) -- does that change anything? Is the "separate organism" thing what matters to you? Let's say the transporter accident had resulted in Tuvix being created *without* removing Tuvok and Neelix from the equation (a la Thomas Riker). Does Tuvix suddenly become a person with rights *then*? Why? He's the same guy, certainly from his own perspective. At *best* you could say he now has more opportunity to distinguish himself, but that's not a given. We could still separate him into new copies of Tuvok and Neelix -- would *that* now be bad because Tuvok and Neelix are still there, so *now* we are creating people "without unique traits"? But doesn't that mean we implicitly acknowledge that Tuvix is something new? It seems very odd to define the rights of Tuvix either in terms of whether Tuvok and Neelix are around, or whether the guy can suddenly play the piano. It's one thing to say "eliminating Tuvix was justified because we wanted to get Tuvok and Neelix back and we didn't think Tuvix was all that worthy". It's quite another to say "Tuvix was never a person in the first place so it's not killing anyone". The latter might make sense superficially from a story perspective, but I don't see how you can consistently argue it without getting into some very unfortunate conclusions about who qualifies as a person with rights. I guess we're lucky this is one of those sci-fi hypotheticals that's not likely to crop up irl, so the outcome of the discussion hopefully doesn't matter.

>>129 >Here's a unique trait: he called himself Tuvix and pleaded for his life Those aren't traits. >My clone example wasn't meant to give you a reason to say "but that's not exactly the same thing" Your clone example is completely irrelevant to the discussion. It's a waste of time and I explained to you exactly how it isn't even remotely comparable. >Let's say the transporter accident had resulted in Tuvix being created *without* removing Tuvok and Neelix from the equation (a la Thomas Riker). Again, not comparable. That's a completely separate being brought into existence, not a fusion of two bodies into one. >but I don't see how Tuvix was quite literally Tuvok and Neelix fused together. There was no new individual, no new body, no new nothing. Separating them did not destroy, kill or otherwise remove anyone or thing. You keep trying to argue via "examples" which are completely different from the actual scenario being discussed. Having to try and discuss something by discussing other things is a sure sign of having no actual argument.

>>130 >Having to try and discuss something by discussing other things is a sure sign of having no actual argument. It's reasoning by analogy, but since you're operating by rules of arguing on the internet (just repeat your own thing until the other party concedes) I'll leave it there. You win, Tuvix was nobody, enjoy the rest of your day.

>>131 You're really bad at attempting to create analogies.

>>126 >Don't comment again I don't know if you're a mod on a power trip or something, but I've seen this episode, and thats what this thread is about There is no later context added to a one off character from season 2 I rewatched the episode just to check, and I am 100% correct Tuvix was a better member of the crew than Tuvok Look, I even grabbed a quote from the episode to prove it. "There's an old axiom. The whole is never greater than the sum of its parts. I think Tuvix might be disproving that notion." This comes after he with ease fixes a problem that Tuvok was struggling with. You probably will ignore this post again, because nobody who isn't trolling actually believes killing Tuvix was anything but preserving the status quo

>>133 You're just proving that you haven't watched the episode. Tuvix eventually started causing big problems on the ship precisely because he was Neelix and Tuvok stuck in the same body and his personality suffered from it.

>>134 People didn't like him because they saw him as their two dead friends, not because of his personality If the captain had just ordered that he wasn't to die then that notion would have eventually died in everybody but Kes I shouldn't need to tell you that wanting to kill a man because he's 1/2 of your boyfriend (who you later break up with anyway) isn't a fucking moral choice Fuck off dude, seriously Find something less retarded to believe and troll about

>>135 You're strangely emotional about the whole thing and honestly dumb as hell. Tuvix is not a separate being from Tuvok and Neelix. To assert that is completely nonsensical. There is no basis for that conclusion. Tuvix is, by the show's own explanation, Tuvok and Neelix merged together by an alien plant. It's two people in one body and the combination made him emotionally volatile as the episode showecased.

>>136 The show acknowledges that he is a unique entity from either being. You are literally making things up that never happened Here's a quote that proves this was the writer intention; "So at what point, did he become an individual and not a transporter accident?" <- Janeway He was emotionally volatile because his death was being floated around casually, you retard. The worst he got before this """touchy subject""" was being discussed was being creepy with Kes (Neelix was also creepy with Kes, she just liked it because they had an established relationship) Chakotay even says he likes him UNIQUELY as a friend, separate from Neelix and Tuvok Imagine if an alien with weird social customs came aboard the ship and Janeway just decided to kill him because he weirded some people out and you could use his blood to heal a couple of sick crew mates

>>137 >The show acknowledges that he is a unique entity from either being. No it doesn't. That quote you posted from Janeway isn't a conclusion about Tuvix, it's Janeway musing about the very thing you're arguing. But no he isn't an individual. The episode makes that abundantly clear both in the technobabble explanation and by Tuvix's own behavior.

>>138 Alright, I get it You didn't watch the episode The doctor says he won't take a life and refuses to separate them at the end. Look at these quotes I yanked from the script and tell me this is "musing" and not a direct confirmation that both of these people consider Tuvix alive: JANEWAY: It's funny. If we'd had the ability to separate Tuvok and Neelix the moment Tuvix came aboard, I wouldn't have hesitated. CHAKOTAY: Of course not. JANEWAY: But now, in the past few weeks, he's begun to make a life for himself on this ship. He's taken on responsibilities, made friends. CHAKOTAY: I count myself as one of them. JANEWAY: So at what point, did he become an individual and not a transporter accident? Every single line of dialogue in the episode is telling you to consider that Tuvix is his own thing, regardless of the circumstances of his birth I think you might just genuinely be unable to fathom this as a concept Jadzia Dax must have been awfully confusing to you

>>139 >Alright, I get it >You didn't watch the episode So now you're parroting me. Okay pal, you've had enough shitposting time. Log off and go do something. Cool off before your next post. You're far too emotional when this discussion calls for logic.

>>140 bad bait acting retarded is still in effect being retarded

>>141 Your post is ironic.