Also reminded that the official manga had Cinder dream of Jaune and it's stated that anything in supplementary material (comics/manga) that doesn't contradict the show is canon so...

>>469 Say anyone know what the hell happened to knightfallcravin? All their written stuff is gone.

>>477 They were disheartened by the ending to V8 and basically gave up on the ship. It's unfortunate because V9 completely turned things around for Knightfall in terms of likelihood for being canon. If they'd just stuck around they would've gotten to enjoy that.

Cinder Backstory

>>489 Fuck, that sucks. There was a really good short-fic I liked that I can't remember the title of. Jaune got to see Cinder's past and there's this whole part where he takes the high-road to her anger.

>>517 Yeah it was dope, but I don't think canon Jaune is going to need Jin to learn about Cinder's past. Thats an easy way out. He's going to have to do the hard thing and ask her directly.

It can be really frustrating explaining Knightfall to people when most people don't even want to pay attention to the actual story. The amount of people that have actually outright stated that they have NO IDEA what V9 was about is just baffling. I don't think that people are stupid either. I think people are lazy. They just straight up refuse to pay attention at all even though RT was being as blunt as possible with it's ideas. Combine that with the blind Cinder-hate and you're gonna end up talking to biased walls who refuse to hear anything than Cinder experiencing the most brutal death possible. Even though that doesn't align with the story.

Knightfall is peak fiction.

>>518 At this point Jaune CAN'T use the Jinn to learn Cinder's Past, since all the questions are used.

The fandom chart. What kind of fan are you?

>>598 Setting - 1 and 2 are the best. 3 Can work too. Remnant AU depends on what the AU is. Changing a small detail in the past is fine if the impacts of this are shown. Complete AU's are usually poorly written shit because it just becomes XcINO (X character In Name Only) where it's just the name and visuals of the character being used. Couer does this with some fics and those are usually his worst. An exception to this rule is New Remnant Odyssey by Ben10Extreme. Seriousness - 1, This or Lancaster Purpose - 1 or 2, Pyre just feels like cheap writing for me personally, and Bashing is just tasteless writing.

>>599 For me it's setting 1, 2, 3. Seriousness is definitely a 1. I genuinely unironically think it's going to be canon. Purpose is 1 or 2. It's mainly an enemies to lovers story but it can be written as straight forward romance.

is barsev's new fic knightfall or something?

>>630 I wouldn't know tbh, I never read any of their fics.

>>598 Post fall, canon believer, enemies to lovers, so basically full left side. But pyre theory is half right.

>>598 I'm a full canon believer myself. I can see the appeal of shipping it just as a kink for some people but the implications of it being canon are just FAR more interesting. You could literally resolve the story of RWBY with Knightfall and it would make perfect sense.

>>692 >pyre theory Depends on how it's written. When it's just "Pyrrha's soul taking over Cinder" or some shit, it just feels kinda cheap. I do think that Part of Pyrrha might be in Cinder, because Maiden-Maiden mind-melding we see between Winter and Penny (and the weird circumstances between Amber, Pyrrha and Cinder), but not to that extent.

>>699 Yeah, that's why I said half right. A fragment of Pyrrha's memory is in there because that's how ascension and maidenhood works, but Cinder is still very much just Cinder. She's not acting meaningfully different because of it. Pyrrha's aura got broken and she had a similar enough particle effect that Penny had when she died, so I consider it pretty much confirmed she was a (part) maiden.

>>564 I'm sorry but you're being far too nice. This is 100% a reading comprehension issue. Most RWBY fans are morons who don't even watch their own series. Hell most people don't even know what themes, parallels, and symbolism are. There is no media literacy to be found with those people. The fact that people cant figure out what V9 is about even after they watched it is proof of this. I mean there are still people to this day that have no idea what Cinder's backstory is about.

>>745 Her backstory is about arousing sympathy in the mentally deficient.

>>755 >Her backstory is about arousing sympathy in the mentally deficient. Weak bait, git gud.

>>757 Looks like her backstory caught one.

>>564 From what I've seen, the prime appeal of KF is Cinder's salvation and escaping consequences. It shouldn't be an upsetting mystery that people logically/rightfully don't like that.

>>758 >Comes into a thread about a topic they're not into to be mad Sounds like the only one "caught" is you ESL-kun >>760 Are you that butthurt poster from the General thread that kept getting pissy after everyone else had already stopped arguing? Salvation, yes. Escaping consequences is (You) making shit up and further deliberately misrepresenting what's being referred to.

>>764 So the appeal of KF isn't for Cinder to be forgiven and absolved of her crimes by the person she's hurt more than anyone else? She's still going to pay for all of her evil in the end?

>>765 Yep, it's definitely you alright. This was addressed in the General thread, several times, by several people, hell it's addressed in this thread too. Repentance and Redemption isn't found at the end of a gun. >appeal of KF (is) for Cinder to be forgiven and absolved of her crimes by (Jaune) Nowhere was this denied; it's a thematic and narrative part of story-telling. The Hero embodying the ultimate idealisms of heroics, of being better than their enemy and reaching out the hand of the saviour, to save all from evil, even those caught up in it. And the opposite thing to hatred and evil, is love and compassion, not force and more hatred. What is denied however is that you're adding on shit about "escaping consequences" when that's neither stated nor implied in any post about the ship and is directly contradictive to the definition of "Redemption". You're arguing in bad faith.

>>771 >Repentance and Redemption aren't found at the end of a gun. Never said it was. I just don't think Cinder is capable of these things, I don't want to see her get them, and I think she would reject them if they were offered to her. Not to mention, I thought the point of Jaune's story was that he is NOT the Hero. Why does he only get to embody that ideal the singular time for the sole benefit of the villain? And please, what consequences would Cinder face if she could win the love of the person she's irrevocably hurt more than anyone else?

>>745 You know what? After looking at recent comments in here, maybe you're right.

>>774 >Never said it was <1-800-c'mon-now.png Don't be obtuse, your implicit thoughts are nearly audible. >I just don't think Cinder is capable of these things <I don't want to see her get them These are two entirely different things. One is an opinion on Cinder, the other is your personal preference. For the former I disagree, for the latter, that's your opinion. >I think she would reject them if they were offered to her To rephrase what another anon said; Cinder is a villain right now, the villain doesn't necessarily need to be seeking redemption, but can find it. Examples range from Vegeta and Omniman to Killua and Jinx, not to mention the likes of Zuko or Pain (Nagato). >Why does he only get to embody that ideal the singular time He doesn't. The whole point isn't that he's NOT the hero, nobody here has claimed that, redditors said that. The claim is that he's not a conventional hero in the "with my powerful fighting I slay the dragon". Jaune learns to fight, to be self-sufficient as a fighter, but as a character he develops, learning that heroism isn't just being gallant and fighting monsters but in helping others and saving them or helping them save themselves. It's LITERALLY part of his semblance. >what consequences would Cinder face 1) Use your imagination you dullard. 2) Just to spoonfeed you this once; how about defying Salem, or giving up her Maiden Powers, or the very dangerous prospect of having the Grimm removed from her body, leaving her crippled and weak again. There's any number of variations with just the above I've mentioned.

>>782 >Don't be obtuse, your implicit thoughts are nearly audible. Would "Repentance and Redemption being found at the end of a gun" not imply I think Cinder is capable of those things in any capacity? Because I don't. >Second point Sure, whatever. I just think Jaune falling in love with Cinder is beyond presumptuous. >Spoonfeed These are consequences for abandoning evil, not for being evil.

>>784 >These are consequences for abandoning evil, not for being evil. I physically went and pulled out my dictionary just to type out the exact words from it because you're actually uneducated. >Redemption: 1. the act of redeeming or the condition of being redeemed, 5. Theology Salvation from sin through Christ's sacrifice (2-4 refer to commercial meaning) >Redeem: 6. To set free; to rescue or ransom 7. To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences. 8. To make up for (an action) (1-5 refer to commercial meaning) Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language edited by William Morris, (my copy) printed in 1970 Abandoning evil, breaking away from it, or being broken out of its hold is BY DEFINITION redemption. Read a fucking book fauner. >not imply I think Cinder is capable of those things in any capacity? Because I don't. No it doesn't imply that, I don't even understand what mental gymnastics brought you to this conclusion >I just think Jaune falling in love with Cinder is beyond presumptuous. And that's your opinion, your arguments for this are shit. The other people at the General opposed to the ship actually DID provide arguments of SOME merit, you have not.

>Told Rusty to "crawl back into your echo chamber" >He shows up here anyway to pick fights I was mostly neutral about it back in the general thread, but now I think the KF anti is just a fucking retard looking to start shit.

>>792 Kinda obvious since he started ranting about it AGAIN a day after the argument had already ended, and on amiable terms.

>>787 >Abandoning evil, breaking away from it, or being broken out of its hold is BY DEFINITION redemption.

>>800 Fauner what are you on about?

>>795 >gay as SU image Gay. Don't do that again. >Hitler Read Eric-Emmanuel Schmitt's The Alternative Hypothesis (La Part de l'autre) if you can find a translation. It's very interesting. Or watch the ending of Come and See.

I don't like the premise that Cinder needs to suffer for her crimes. The reason her paying any kind of toll is irrelevant is because she's already BEEN suffering. Suffered as a trafficked child slave and continues to suffer now as a slave to the Queen of Grimm. Why would piling MORE suffering onto her character fix anything? It's just unnecessary. It perpetuates the same cycle of endless pain she's been in from the start. The point of redemption and Knightfall is that they'd be breaking that cycle. By healing. Not inflicting more pain.

>>850 >I don't like the premise that Cinder needs to suffer for her crimes. Cinder's suffering already, visibly so and is on a self-destructive path, the path out will be a road of suffering as well; Ad Astra Per Aspera, getting through adversity will break the cycle, but to do that will mean suffering to do so. As Yoda once said; Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering. The takeaway here is that Jaune is the one who will end the cycle of suffering, by not contributing to it, a la the cycle of hatred in Naruto.

>>850 They probably think that redeeming Cinder meant that Pyrrha's death is cheapened somehow by said redemption.

>>860 It isn't though. I understand why that MIGHT be a thought, but it isn't. If Jaune joined Cinder's side with Salem that would be betraying Pyrrha and his friends, but redeeming her is the opposite of betrayal; It's going with the "Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." philosophy.

>>856 Exactly. Thats WHY he was given the healing powers. Because there is someone in pain and in need of healing. Cinder only lashes out at the world because internally she's in pain and Jaune is the only person who can heal this wound.

>>564 >>745 From a certain perspective it makes sense that people don't get it. RWBY is a metafiction, a story about other stories. Oftentimes, those stories are reinterpreted, misinterpreted, etc. Take the faunus mythos, or how Blake saw Adam, or the stuff with Ruby and Summer. In universe, the reaction to Knightfall would be similar to what it is in the fandom.

>>894 >RWBY is a metafiction, a story about other stories. Oftentimes, those stories are reinterpreted, misinterpreted, etc. <From a certain perspective it makes sense that people don't get it. Excellent point.

Ozpin's quote from the Girl in the Tower fairy tale: "To the Headmaster, this is a reminder that the familiar stories we know are just small parts of a larger one–as there's more before "once upon a time" and after "happily ever after." It is the storyteller who decides when the story begins and ends, and if you look far enough ahead, even a story with a happy ending may become a tragedy. Heroes may turn out to be the villains, and he hopes that the reverse is also true." The whole point of the story is that Heroes/Villains are not fixed roles and anyone can easily become the other. The idea that "Cinder is a villain and needs to be murdered" doesn't mesh with the story's themes.

>>894 Oz's comments on Salem's fairy tale again back up this notion: "The Girl in the Tower is unique in that the protagonist is credited with penning their own story, writing herself out of danger and showing self awareness about fairy tales and her own status as one. As a metafiction, it demonstrates the power of stories to create reality and shape destiny. Ozpin talks about how this how propaganda works, as every fairy tale has a purpose, whether overt or hidden. Salem wanted to show her story to elicit sympathy and motivate people to come to her aid, subsequently dooming many warriors to die for her. Her story did not include the whole truth, and is ambiguous as to what might have been false when she spread word of her tale." ~~~~~~~~~~ Blake interpreting Adam as if only one word defined him, then being shocked when he was more than that is pretty much exactly how people treat Cinder. Both in and out of universe. Expecting her to just be a villain but then were upset when she got a backstory because it meant she wasn't just gonna be a one-dimensional punching bag for Jaune to beat up. The whole Ever After explains to us why this mindset is wrong. <-- See Video It literally put Jaune in a story book and gave him a role and he tries to "just play the hero like it says in the book" and "just stick to the role" and "just do what it says in the book" no matter what and he was punished for it. Over and over. Because people are not characters in a book.

>>910 So if I understand this correctly Jaune's story in the ever after was about him learning to see past ideas like heroes and villains instead of being trapped in them? Is that also what the stuff with Alyx was about?

Yes. Heroes and villains are not roles set in stone, they are ever changing. Stories are also changed in a way to fit the narrative. Alyx' story ends with her last second redemption, her wanting to fix everything she broke instead of leaving Ever After. Meanwhile Jaune ended up playing almost villainous role by preventing Paper Pleasers from ascending. Everyone is capable of change at any point of the story, for better or worse.

>>909 >>910 This is extremely well put. Jaune himself is trapped in someone else's story, he finally unshackles himself by letting go of those false pretenses imposed upon him by his own expectations. Cinder's story isn't entirely dissimilar either, she's trapped by her own delusions that power and it's pursuit is going to give her freedom. While in reality she's no less under Salem's control now than she was the Madam's as a child. Salem herself could have treated her immortality as a blessing, a chance to experience the world, to do good. The stories that we tell ourselves, are the most powerful and psychologically imposing of all. >>935 It's a huge part of it, no doubt. The essence of someone is decided by their actions, and essence changes with choice, it's classic existentalism. I view the whole Ever After as an endorsement for the worldview that purpose and meaning is self made, and that for Jaune to reach the Tree, and ultimately be reborn, he first had to accept himself for who he was, rather than live in a state of denial, as he was doing. Alyx gains self awareness about her actions at the Tree as well. For Jung the World tree can bee identified with a process of individuation, the growth of the self. Throughout mythology characters interact with the World tree to introspect, to gain wisdom, and ultimately 'journey inward'.

>>935 Yes thats exactly what her story was about. Thats the whole point of Alyx's story. Alyx is a direct parallel to Cinder similar to how the Cat is a parallel to Salem. Jaune's flaw in the Ever After is not that he's not supposed to be the Hero but that he's trying to play pretend Hero for a bunch of people that don't actually need his help. Which is what causes him to miss the one person who DID need his help. Which is Alyx. He failed to save her because he tried to stick to the story. Play the character. Worst of all he just wrote her off as villain without trying to understand her. Never once asked her why she was doing what she was doing. Or how she was feeling. He only saw her as a character in a story and not as a person. Jaune's desire to finally play the Hero was so strong that he was willing to drink poison just to stick to the role. Which is the most blatant example of how toxic his is mindset was. Theres no other reason why the writers had Jaune learn that lesson with Alyx's story unless it was to prevent that from happening again. Which is why anyone thinking "Cinder is the bad guy and we need to murder her" is falling for the same mental trap that Jaune did in the Ever After. The story is very clearly telling us that is WRONG.

>>960 100% agreed on all points. Though I would add that part of Cinder's flaw is that she only sees raw physical and destructive might as power when theres different kinds of strengths. Most of which she either doesn't have or doesn't acknowledge. Which is why Jaune's supposed to introduce her to the kind of power that she's been ignoring.

Which scenario would you prefer? >Cinder being a full on dominatrix queen with Jaune as her sub >Cinder TRYING to be dominant, but fumbles hard whenever she does it with Jaune that the mood turns awkwardly wholesome instead.

>>1019 Probably the latter. Cinder isn't a real dom she's a sub who likes to pretend she's dom.

<---See Video The Blacksmith makes it pretty clear that no one is going to kill Cinder. "Only love can restore balance." After going out of their way to have literal God explain this to the characters they're not gonna have the characters brutally murder Cinder.

Ok so say Jaune saves her. Say he falls in love with her. Say she actually loves him back. Isn't it possible for her to still die? via heroic sacrifice or something? like Hazel?

>>1100 >1100 Checked >Ok so say Jaune saves her. Say he falls in love with her. Say she actually loves him back. Isn't it possible for her to still die? via heroic sacrifice or something? like Hazel? That is possible, yes. It would kinda suck though, since not only would she be saved only to die before she could truly live, but Jaune would be losing another person he'd care about and what is more, after all the struggles and suffering that got to that point. Although not quite the same this is similar to Couer's Stress Relief. And then Ruby pulls a Summer and married Jaune.

>>1100 Possible but unlikely. The point of the Alyx scenario pretty much mandates that he succeeds in saving the girl this time. Things would fall completely flat if Cinder was allowed to die this time because that would mean that Jaune had failed yet again.

>>1019 Gentle femdom.

>>1100 >>1103 And I'm suddenly reminded of the dream.

>>1137 >And I'm suddenly reminded of the dream. What dream? >>1019 I think it would be a situation where Cinder's persona is flipped in bed; from hot and domineering to wanting to be cuddled and gentle... although I do expect the occasional rough fuck moments. Though I expect her to be a dom for any girl on girl action. As a side note this reminds me of how people were arguing about pegging and Jaune ships (cringe, but whatever) and ficretus decided to compile data on it based on ao3 results. Velvet was the winner while Cinder didn't even make 3rd place thankfully. https://www.tumblr.com/ficretus/781547623478919168/most-likely-female-character-to-peg-jaune-based-on?source=share

>>1151 I think I might've posted it once upon a time in the other rwby thread on the other site. I don't have it typed up on this computer, but it involved Cinder having a moment of self-sacrifice quite deliberately mirroring Pyrrha's death. Including further traumatizing Jaune by mirroring sending him away before doing so. Though in this case, Pyrrha's spirit intervened to spare her that fate... something Cinder doesn't strictly believe she deserves.

>>1154 This sounds very good. >in the other rwby thread on the other site. You mean 8kun (renamed 8ch)? If so do you remember what thread it might have been in? I'm gonna try to dig around.

>>1155 Nah, the /trash/ over on 4chan. If you find a screen cap, could you share it please? >I still recall Cinder's new theme song playing as she returns to face Salem's new maiden candidate.

>>1157 Ah, then it would be in desuarchive. Can you give me any keywords you can remember from the text. Anything like that and I'll be able to find it. I can probably find it without them, but you'll significantly ease my search if you can remember I should also probably scrape 8kun/8ch archives and recover older stuff there anyway.

>>1158 Ah, hmm... I did then use Kingmaker as my personal flavor of Knightfall, but I'm not certain if I used it in that post. I do recall using the term 'empty sleeve' to reference that when Cinder was saved by Pyrrha's spirit, it purged the Grimm arm from her... which was helpful, since Salem was letting the new Maiden candidate use it as a restraining bolt on her.

>>1158 Oh, I found it on my drive! >Cinder has been forced to work with the heroes after Salem acquires the Summer Maiden >Salem for whatever reason views SM as being superior to Cinder and sends her to kill/counter-succ her for the Fall Maiden powers >Part of Cinder's problem being her Grimm arm, which the SM has been set up to be able to exploit in their encounters >Cinder and Jaune both hate each other, but are harboring an attraction as they're forced to work together. >The action eventually moves to one of the Vaults where a big battle occurs. >The Vault is set up with something of a self-destruct mechanism meant to go off when the Relic is claimed. >SM sets it off and uses some sort of teleporting escape method to get clear of the Vault >I forget the dream logic in play, but this teleporter had a limited number of charges and someone will be left behind. >Jaune, still very much in a martyr mindset hangs back and lets all of his friends go first until it's just him and Cinder. >There's a moment of indecision as the count down ticks away, before he turns to Cinder. >She's already made the decision for him, she suddenly pulls him into a kiss... then slams him into the teleporter with her Grimm arm. >The glass slides down locking him him as they stare at each other as Jaune starts banging against the glass. >Yes, because my subconscious is fucked up this is meant to directly parallel Pyrrha putting him into the locker. >"I'm sorry." >Emotional Damage. (1/2) >>62970191 (You) >When Jaune pops out outside to an already running battle with SM, everyone knows what happened as he's clearly besides himself. >Cinder just walks calmy into the center of the Vault, accepting that this will be her penance. >As the Vault starts blowing, she feels a presence and looked over her shoulder to find a familiar face. >"Pyrrha... is that you...?" >In the background of the fight, the Vault is visibly seen exploding. >Jaune can only stare as the SM starts to taunt him over it... >...until she received a Dynamic Entry kick to the face. >Upon recovery, she finds herself staring down a returned Cinder Fall. >How did she manage to escaped the Vault? >Fuck you, it was a dream and it was a cool scene in my mind. >She immediately goes for the Grimm arm only for Cinder to not react at all. >Her sleeve is fluttering in the wind, empty. >SM growls at the prospect of a fair fight. >Cinder gets a cool new 'hero' theme that's something about phoenix's and/or riding from the ashes. >Dream Ends as they begin a new fight sequence

>>1159 >>1160 Excellent find. Lad. I gotta go RN, but I'll be sure to read it.

>>1151 People forget that Cinder is mostly putting on an act. She wears the mask of the Villainess to imitate women she views as powerful like the Madam and Salem but thats not who she is underneath. She's just a weak girl trying to be safe. Doing whatever she feels is necessary to survive.

>>1160 Beautiful and tragic. Though I'm hoping Knightfall doesn't actually end up like this.

>>1019 I want them both to be nervous virgins who don't really know what they are doing and trying desperately to impress each other.

>>946 To add on to this the Blacksmith explicitly points out how a simple act can lead to drastic change in a person. <--See Video Her last quote is extremely important too: "Terrible thing to have a broken heart" Which is the core would of the whole story. The breaking of Oz & Salem and the reason Cinder does what she does. Hence Jaune's initial question to her: "How can you be so broken inside?" Which again is why Jaune was given the power to heal. Because there is something broken and in need of restoration. And it's Cinder's heart.

>>1169 Definitely agree that they'd be both virgins. Fanfiction depicting Cinder as a slut or Jaune as some fuckboi has done horrible damage to their perception as characters.

>>1068 >>1170 I agree, it's actually rather ham fisted all things considered. I imagine if the future of RWBY wasn't up in the air, then they wouldn't have made things quite so clear. But even without all this, there's little else for them to do as characters. The whole notion of Jaune just going beck to being a good team player, or whatever, is played out. I'd say they same about Cinder just being a totally ruthless cunt. If anything the most surprising implication is that Salem's redemption is on the table as well. I'm not as confident as I am with Cinder, let alone the completely obvious Mercury redemption, but still. >>1171 Well Jaune is 1000% a virgin, I guess Cinder is more up for debate, but regardless the fanon perception is totally unsunstantiated on the whole. Also I don't know why I have a new ID now?

>>1173 Yeah it's pretty blunt. Which is why it's wild that so many people gloss over it. Nonetheless I'm glad they made it so obvious and easy to read. Theres no way we get back and just go back to the same generic story of Jaune trying to kill Cinder without having learned anything from Alyx. Yeah Jaune is easy to see. Cinder a little less so because she puts on the femme fatale act but once you realize that it is in fact an act and Cinder doesn't even like people touching her. I think it's pretty clear that Cinder has never been with anyone sexually. Her mindset wouldn't allow it. She's too hyperfocused on power. She's a girl in permanent survival mode. She likely hasn't even given any thought to pleasure or happiness. Cinder is someone who grew up believing that she couldn't be loved. So she stopped looking for it.

>>1163 And yet, Cinder must make amends for killing Pyrrha in this scenario... I think subconsciously I knew it, hence why Pyrrha's spirit had to be the thing to intervene to spare Cinder. >I literally dreamed Cinder in the kneeling position Pyrrhad had been in before she died.

>>1181 >I literally dreamed Cinder in the kneeling position >Pyrrhad had been in before she died. I thought that sentence was going somewhere else lol. >>1171 Pic rel we need a knightfall edit lol

>>1186 I'm mildly drunk, so...

>>1187 Make us proud

Wouldn't Jaune's friends have a problem with him falling in love with Cinder and try to stop him? How would they even fall in love? They're on opposite sides of a war. When are they even gonna find the time to fall in love instead of just attacking each other on site?

>>1227 >Wouldn't Jaune's friends have a problem with him falling in love with Cinder and try to stop him? Some maybe, but what are they going to do exactly? Falling in love is... a curious thing. You can't stop someone from falling in love, just as you can't really force someone into love. >They're on opposite sides of a war. That's kinda implied with the enemies to lovers trope. You could ask the same thing of any other ship involving enemy characters like Jaune and Neo. >When are they even gonna find the time to fall in love instead of just attacking each other on site? Because of Jaune's change in attitude. He's not going off in a blind rage, he hasn't since Haven, especially given his time in the Ever After. Furthermore his change in attitude towards heroism has led to this "I have no enemies" type attitude I think. >>1209 Don't you do Ruby dirty like that.

>>1227 >Wouldn't Jaune's friends have a problem with him falling in love with Cinder and try to stop him? Maybe, but it's not really their place to step into that. Love is complicated and messy and just how people fall in love isn't a science. >>1231 >Don't you do Ruby dirty like that. I made that out of LOVE.

That's part of the appeal, forbidden love. It makes sense with in-universe themes of them being reverse of Salem and Ozma. It also makes sense with Jaune's Joan of Arc allusion since she was branded as heretic (Joan falling in love with enemy soldier is also relatively common trope in story's adaptations)

I find it pretty amazing how fans will freak out over a ship like this but then turn around and ship Jaune with Neo or Emerald. They've also done pretty bad stuff. But no one seems to have a problem with Neo being a literal assassin who murders people regularly. Yet they complain about Cinder. I'm not a big Knightfall shipper but the hypocrisy of the fandom's reaction to this ship is really something. So I wanna ask the Knightfall fans something: Who are your biggest haters? White Knight fans? Lancaster fans? or Arkos fans?

>>1242 It's mostly bitter Arkos fans who felt insulted by the idea that Jaune would fell in love with Pyrrha's killer. Personally, I find their preferred outcome (Jaune killing Cinder in murderous revenge for Pyrrha) to be a very boring conclusion for all characters involved.

>>1227 To be fair, while I had been focusing mostly of Jaune and Cinder the concept of Cinder being forced to work him with also involves her being forced to work with his friends. I can easily imagine that some of them will continue to not like her, at all.... but she'd be close enough to become familiar to them. I can easily see Ruby starting to see just how damaged Cinder is beneath the surface.

>>1227 They all more or less forgave Emerald over the time of a day, and Emerald hadn't even done anything for them at that point. If Cinder actually has a redemption arc then I don't think anyone would have much to say about it. Especially with Ren around who could confirm it's not a complete ruse.

>>1171 >>1187 >a knightfall edit Excellent work by ficretus

I'd say Arkos fans by sizable margin. Lot of them feel entitled to Jaune and think he should NEVER move on. Jaune being with Pyrrha's killer is insult to injury. WK fans sort of dislike us but don't feel threatened by us since they feel V9 made WK canon. Lancaster fans are mostly neutral. Some can be annoying, some are fellow Knightfall fags like Rusty.

>>1252 Not that I think on it... there's room for a scene where they're both trying to hype up their own sexual prowess, when both are effectively virgins. Then them having to admit it to each other in the bedroom.

>>1242 Because of the uid tag now it's clear that one guy who gets very upset about Knightfall and starts harassing KF posters is an Arkos fan

>>1256 It's kinda funny because nobody has even attacked Pyrrha in this thread or the General. >>1254 >Lot of them feel entitled to Jaune That always feels like it being more Pyrrha fans and makes Jaune a hanger-on that 'belongs to her' or something. The JL movie Part 1 kinda accidentally riffed on that with the digital Pyrrha going yandere over Jess and Jaune.

>>1254 Whiteknight shippers are going to go ballistic when their ship gets sunk to the bottom of the ocean. It'll be on another level to the Blacksun / Bees thing with how many of them there are.

>>1254 Arkos fans seem to genuinely want Jaune chained to Pyrrha's corpse for all eternity. They unironically put Pyrrha on a pedestal the same way that Pyrrha herself said she hated.

>>1260 You say that rhetorically, but you immediately made me think of resurrected grimm!Pyrrha. >"What? I said I'd give her back to you."

>>1259 Whole fandom is gonna lose their shit because everyone hates Cinder to a degree. The debates, the discourse, the sheer controversy will be 1000x worse than what it is now. Which is probably what the writers want.

>>1259 Shit dude they're fucking annoying when you just say wk isn't good. I can't imagine the asshurt.

>>1266 WK set-up is so weak that I've seen even WK fans say that it doesn't need to make sense because there is world ending war happening around them.

>>1269 Which I think is a disservice to both characters. You should want the romantic relationship between 2 of the main characters to be well written. But they're asking for scraps when they should be demanding a meal. Wanting it to be half-assed, just says they don't actually care about either character. But the unfortunate reality of WK is that it can't actually add anything to the story. The best it could amount to is some cute pics of them with a family in an epilogue.

>>1278 >>1269 >>1266 Gonna be honest. Personally not a WK fan. I like Weiss and I like Jaune, I just don't think the ship works narratively, ESPECIALLY after The Ever After. Jaune feels disconnected from his team-mates, he's mentally as old as Qrow and Willow, and is maybe a decade older than Cinder. To repost someone else's take on this: Weiss's story with Jaune could conclude with Weiss doing the same thing as Jaune did for her at the dance: A complete reversal of Beacon, she falls for him, goes to confess, only to realize he's moved on and is in love with someone else. She accepts this and pushes him & the woman he loves together, the same way he did for her with Neptune. Returning the favor and making things come full circle.

>>1296 Technically we don't know how old Jaune is, we were only given 10-20 years range for his stay in Ever After. So he could be as "young" as 29 years old. I think bigger issue I have is that Jaune growing older mentally in Ever After has no narrative significance for most of his ships. Like what does it accomplish with something like WK outside of momentarily awakening daddy kink in Weiss. But on the other hand I think it's necessary for him to sympathize with Oz as well as Cinder (emotionally isolating Jaune for years after he murdered Penny, similar as how Cinder was isolated after murdering her family)

>>1307 He was already rusted and bearded when Alyx and Lewis fell and that happened years and years ago. I'm guessing at least over a decade, probably two, especially given his white streaks of hair. >it's necessary for him to sympathize with Oz as well as Cinder (emotionally isolating Jaune for years after he murdered Penny, similar as how Cinder was isolated after murdering her family) This

>>1296 Yeah I would agree thats the most likely ending for Weiss. It's a poetic way to end things.

Some of the biggest contentions people often have about Jaune saving Cinder are misunderstandings. They seem to think it will: 1.) Come at the cost of Jaune's relevance(they think it means think he remains a background character) 2.) Come at the cost of Jaune improving himself(they think he will remain weak forever) I don't think either of those things are true. I think Jaune will be first and foremost in the conflict with Cinder and the others will not even be involved. Secondly, I do think Jaune will actually become stronger once he masters his semblance and can use it for combat. It's just not going to be used for killing Cinder but rather defending her.

>>1318 Honestly, I'm reminded of a quick and dirty I wrote up that based a Jaune vs Cinder fight on Kenshin vs Seta Sojiro. Especially taking into consideration that Cinder probably DID read the story of the Rusted Knight at some point.

>>1319 This one?

>>1320 Ah, that one exactly. It was something that I just had to get out of my system once I considered it.

>>1320 Holy shit thats fucking hype. lol. >>1319 I'm gonna need to see a full version at some point man. It's too good not to finish.

>>1322 Admittedly, it's one of the ideas that percolating... just mentally, I believed that Cinder had wanted to be saved for her situation and projected the Rusted Knight onto Rhodes... who disappointed her. And now that she knew he was real and he hadn't saved her? It doesn't matter that she rationally knew that he wasn't the RK yet when she was a girl, because it was an entirely emotional reaction without rationality being any part of it. And that she knew it wasn't rational, only made it worse for Cinder.

>>1296 Jaune and Weiss' best conclusion is if they remain close platonic friends. They have very little satisfying narrative potential together, with no romantic buildup to justify it. I've seen some of the more delusional fans call it a slowburn but... Watching a pot sit on an oven that's turned off isn't a slowburn either, you know? The only characters whose development around Jaune actually adds to his arc and the story he's telling are Ruby and Cinder... and technically Oscar.

What are you guys thoughts on Jaune being killed to save Cinder? I'd prefer if neither of them were killed but I don't think we should ignore the possibility.

>>1340 I mean if it was written well it COULD be done, but personally I don't care for it. It would definitely fulfill the Jaune-haters' obsessive fantasy of having Jaune martyring himself at Beacon instead of Pyrrha however.

>>1340 Considering how the writers treat men in this series? I wouldn't be surprised at all if they thought Jaune should die so that a woman can live.

>>1342 >It would definitely fulfill the Jaune-haters' obsessive fantasy of having Jaune martyring himself at Beacon Nah, if the Jaune-haters have their way, he wouldn't even get a dignified death at all (see Adam)

>>1344 >Nah, if the Jaune-haters have their way, he wouldn't even get a dignified death at all (see Adam) Ah true, forgot that, although I guess Hazel is an example of some dignity in death. >>1343 Don't remind me.

>>1320 Reminds me of pic rel

As a side note about Rusted Jaune and RWBY: Beyond episode he talks about The Ever After with Oscar/Ozpin made me wonder... why did they have Pyrrha at the campfire eating together like that? The ones that went camping together, and in most recent memory, and for many months at a time were RNJR. So it should have been Ruby IMO.

>>1348 I assume that in Jaune's mind seeing Ruby again was a foregone conclusion. He has no way of knowing if his friends at the campfire are okay even in a metaphysical sense. It's been over 20 years since he's seen Nora and Ren, worsened by him having no ability to help them or wait for them because they got out to Vacuo in time. Pyrrha is dead and so Jaune doesn't know when his time to see her will ever come.

>>1349 >I assume that in Jaune's mind seeing Ruby again was a foregone conclusion. >He has no way of knowing if his friends at the campfire are okay even in a metaphysical sense. It's been over 20 years since he's seen Nora and Ren, worsened by him having no ability to help them or wait for them because they got out to Vacuo in time. Pyrrha is dead and so Jaune doesn't know when his time to see her will ever come. I suppose that makes sense. Still felt weird to be honest.

>>1351 It's also kinda bad writing on the other hand. If Jaune was thinking about Ruby there it'd make plenty of sense. Hell her and Pyrrha could have both been there. But it'd cause a major uproar from shipfauners. Pyrrha is easy to put there because she and Jaune already kissed and blah blah blah

>>1340 It's one of the things that makes some thematic sense but also feels needlessly cruel and cynical. But considering Jaune has been trying to sacrifice himself for so many volumes, I feel this would be overall shit conclusion. He is to lesser degree Reiner from AOT, so I would expect relatively similar conclusion to his character. >>1344 If Jaune haters had their way he would be killed by Ruby to avenge Penny while rest of the team clapped. >>1334 Exactly. Weiss' and Jaune's arc feel completely disjointed. At most, what they have in common is defining themselves instead of being defined by their family, but that's mostly Weiss' thing. And one can just as easily make an argument that Jaune's arc of constantly trying to be someone else is closer to Cinder's arc of trying to emulate more powerful figures like Madame or Salem.

Who do you guys think is worse. Cinder haters or Jaune haters?

>>1362 They're both different flavors of awful

>>1362 Jaune haters. Cinder haters can be unhinged, but at least they are butthurt over things Cinder actually did (example, killed Pyrrha). Jaune haters straight up make shit up about him to hate him. Like Jaune being pedo, misogynyst, sexually assaulting Weiss, emotionally abusing Pyrrha, etc.

Basically: Cinder haters are unhinged but Jaune haters are deranged. It's also kind of funny how Jaune & Cinder are the two most hated characters in the fandom. Knightfall really is a hate-sink ship. lol.

Kind of crazy how when it comes to the amount of discussion going on, the Knightfall thread is the second highest of all the RWBY threads.

>>1378 I suppose it's because we have to yap a lot to get the idea across. Unlike some other ships we can't literally just say "it's gonna be canon... it came to me in a dream"

>>1378 We have a literary interpretation of RWBY within which Knightfall makes sense. We could discuss Emercury here as well, which more or less has the exact same reasons for happening.

>>1378 Yeah it's mainly because a discussion about Knightfall involves discussing the actual story and the narrative implications of it. Most ships either have just cute fluff or gooning. Every ship has those things but the discussion can't survive for long based on just that. Those are short-lived. Knightfall forces you to discuss the future of the story so naturally it comes with a LOT of discourse. Especially because of the pushback from people who hate the idea or just hate either Cinder or Jaune.

The deliberate Salem parallels alone are enough to warrant a lot of discussion.

>>1380 Well now I'm curious about this. What are the reasons for Emercury? They're pretty close but most people try to put Emerald with Cinder or portray her as a raging lesbian in fics.

>>1383 Most major characters can be broken down to being either Salem or Ozma. And so most relationships are either some form of Ozlem recreation or answer Ozlem in some way. Knightfall seems to be reverse Ozlem, as in events from their flashback happening in reverse order. Them starting as mortal enemies , all leading to Jaune rescuing Cinder from metaphorical tower. Emercury is similar, bit milder version. They started as disliking each other but seem to be heading towards Emerald rescuing Mercury from his abusive father figure (in this case Emerald is Ozma while Mercury is Salem)

>>1382 >Both Cinder and Jaune find this incredibly hot, but refuse to dwell on it.

>>1383 I remember in one episode of RWBY Chibi Emerald refers to Cinder as the mother figure she always wanted. Yeah it's Chibi so not exactly serious or canon or anything but still.

>>1382 Partially true. What makes it plausible is how those parallels are used. Take for example Blake and Adam. You can find same imagery there, but context is different. Adam and Blake went through entire cycle already and now they are at point of no return. They are faithful recreation of Salem and Ozma so far. On the other hand with Jaune and Cinder this happens in their first real encounter. This doesn't make sense if you see it as straightforward Ozlem relationship, because they aren't. Their first encounter uses same imagery as Ozlem's last encounter at that point of the story. And then you have Jaune being presumed dead and taking on a new identity in V9, just like Ozma. They are going in reverse.

>>1387 An aside thought now that I'm reminded of it, I recall Mercury at some point calling out that Cinder acting as a mother figure to Emerald was a form of manipulation. Except with what we learn, it might actually not be. The more depressing option might be that, without some major rehabilitation, that might be as close as Cinder can get to motherly affection. After all, the only point of reference she has is how Madam treated her real daughters.

>>1383 I mean, at the very least you can tell they care a lot about each other. Well especially with Mercury. That look they gave each other back at Volume 8 when Mercury was being whisked off by Tyrian... you can just tell. If they don't get together, then I sort of agree with the Knightfall deniers that our ship is cooked. Mercury will need his own redemption arc, and cute little story with Emerald. Emerald's redemption you could always see coming, with Mercury, the only way you could ever see it happenening would be with Emerald going first (I mean seriously, he's choosing her over Tyrian 10/10 times). The world is literally ending, even Mercury won't be able to stay delusional about that for much longer with Tyrian hanging out with him, who is happy to point it out.

>>1383 It's largely due to the fact that they just care about each other a LOT. The idea that Emerald is a lesbian and totally gay for Cinder is nothing more than fan headcanon perpetuated throughout fanfics. It's clear she only view Cinder as a mother figure. >>1387 It's not just Chibi. It's also literally stated in canon that Emerald views Cinder as her mother figure. When she & Mercury are arguing about why she follows Cinder in V6 and Emerald straight up tells him it's because she never had a mother.

>>1384 This is true. When you start looking at the romantic relationships in the story as reflections of Ozma & Salem a lot more of the story begins to make sense. Like for example I never used to understand what the hell the purpose of Ren & Nora's arc in Atlas was and disregarded it as some retarded time waster plot line. But when you understand it's a commentary on Oz & Salem's relationship it's purpose becomes more clear. It's essentially showing us what Oz should have done with Salem. Oz dived into the role of the Hero and refused to actually talk to his wife. Ren makes the same mistake but he makes up for it in the end when he apologizes to Nora. Which is why it's important that Ren's semblance evolved into something that could better understand his wife's emotions and isn't directly related to combat. Which is ultimately what RWBY is about.

What about Jaune's potential powerup? surely the show wouldn't just leave his combat growth to the wayside right? People wanna see that. Even if you try to argue that the plot isn't gonna be resolved purely with violence/strength Jaune has been on a clear path of growing to become stronger. His semblance isn't even useful the way it is now. Is it even gonna grow? They can't just setup his potential and then just ignore it.

>>1405 As I said earlier I don't think Jaune is going to remain a weakling. His experience in the Ever After aside, his ability objectively has to get stronger if they want his healing to even be relevant. I have't voiced this much but I personally think that Jaune is going to be the strongest non-maiden character in the series. He'll be a fully fledged Paladin by the end.

Also it should be reiterated that Jaune's ability isn't really healing it's amplification. Healing is just one of it's many applications. My point is that if they want to keep using it for healing then it has to get stronger by default. Because what he's doing now isn't cutting it.

>>1346 Might as well post the whole thing in here.

Is Cinder Asian?

>>1504 I always just assumed she's a hapa

>>1506 >hapa That means half-breed or something right?

>>1515 Yes

>>1504 Mistral is based on asian countries so that would make sense. But concept of "asian" doesn't really exist in the context of remnant.

>>1506 Oh. Thank you. >>1519 I guess that makes sense. I still like to imagine her as asian american looking.

>>1526 Personally I always thought Cinder was Atlesian or rather from the Atlesian kingdom, if only because it doesn't make sense for The Madame to go all the way to Mistral to find a slave. >>1515 It comes from hawaiian language and means multi-racial, but is generally applied to Asian/White halfbreeds. >>1454 >>1456 Danks for Posting.

I find it interesting that both Cinder and Pyrrha are from mistral. Purely coincidence or if knightfall happens does that mean Jaune as a thing for mistral girls?

>>1532 >Personally I always thought Cinder was Atlesian or rather from the Atlesian kingdom I mean she was shown in mistral wasn't she? Either way that would also make sense. The writers said that Atlas is supposed to be America. So that would just tie into the idea of her being a hapa. Being a mix of both Mistral and Atlesian.

>>1533 Certainly would be a trend. lol.

/trash/ banter gave me an idea for a KnightFall fic. >Cinder should be locked up at the end of the series, regardless if she's allowed conjugal visits. >Conjaunegal visits? When I get some time I'm gonna try to write this as a short one-shot.

>>1536 >she was shown in mistral It's not actually clear where she is except an orphanage. She SAYS she's from Mistral in V3, but it's also during a speech meant to weave chaos and anti-Atlas sentiment so...

>>1538 I liked to imagine imprisoned!Cinder looking like this, with all the content, smug evil energy too.

>>1540 Isn't Atlas is always cold and snowy though? As far as we know there aren't any warm green areas let alone orphanages. I don't think Atlas even cares about orphans.

>>1545 I think it depends on time of year. The place the orphanage is in resembles a lot of arctic areas that are green in the spring/summer time, with flat plains and few trees. There's places like that in Finland. But again, who really knows it's very unclear. >>1542 Smug is accurate to Cinder but I think after being imprisoned and such it feels like she'd be a more quiet type, since (assuming this is after Salem's gone she's sort of lost her purpose. More a quiet dangerous sort. If Watt's had survived I think he'd be more the smug evil type even after losing.

>>1540 I agree with the other guy. Atlas is typically always icey. I might have to rewatch but I don't think we ever saw anything green in Atlas.

Bold of you guys to assume Atlas has orphanages.

>>1550 >>1545 >Bold of you guys to assume Atlas has orphanages. Well given that Ren and Nora apparently wandered around before going to Beacon seems Mistral lacked orphanages too.

To be fair Ren & Nora could have visited some. But it's unlikely that orphanages were a safe place in mistral. It's possible they just chose not to stay at them.

>>1405 I think obstacle Jaune needs to clear out first is his self loathing. Once he starts loving and accepting himself, he'll be able to use self cast his Semblance. And after that, I'd say his boost on others will grow as well. Because person that doesn't love themselves can't properly love either. I think boosted Jaune will be one of the strongest characters, but he'll probably take mostly support role in story's finale.

>>1547 I don't think Solitas is suppose to be subarctic area like Finland, it seems more like full on Arctic. We never see it unfrozen and even on map Solitas is full on white. It's open to interpretation, but I think based om trees it's suppose to be Anima, and not even Northern Anima (since that place has pines). Trees in Cinder's backstory remind me the most of the ones we see in Shion. And irl they remind me of something like acacia.

>>1564 On a second glance, goons 2 and 3 beating up kid Cinder are wearing kimonos and look Asian af. She is probably from Anima.

>>1566 >>1564 >This Damn, good catch there. >>1563 >I think obstacle Jaune needs to clear out first is his self loathing. Once he starts loving and accepting himself, he'll be able to use self cast his Semblance. And after that, I'd say his boost on others will grow as well. Because person that doesn't love themselves can't properly love either. True. Honestly I wonder if, at the end, his semblance at full release wouldn't be sort of like the Fox Cloak Naruto makes for the Shinobi Alliance during the 4th Great Ninja War.

>>1533 He was living in the same dorm room as Pyrrha and Nora. Enough said

>>1574 You wouldn't happen to also be a Nora's Arc shipper?

>>1563 Yeah I've been saying this for the longest time. Jaune doesn't amplify himself in battle because he doesn't see value in himself. Hence his comment "Only they matter" during V5. He generally doesn't see himself as worth amplifying due to a lack of love for himself. Once that changes, he'll finally be the full Holy Paladin archetype that he's supposed to be.

>>1568 Theres that and the moment where Naruto heals Kakashi's eye. I believe we'll get a similar moment with Jaune healing Cinder's eye and completely restoring it.

>>1597 >I believe we'll get a similar moment with Jaune healing Cinder's eye and completely restoring it. That's not how Naruto's powers work though. He rebuilds an eye from scratch using the Creation of All Things. That's basically using Chakra (energy) and creating matter. It's different from what he does for Might Guy, or his fox cloak. Jaune amplifies aura, but as we see with Nora, any already 'healed'/scarred tissue won't regrow.

>>1576 Not at all, I just think that his incilnations aren't a total coincidence all things considered.

>>1605 Right thats only in regards to how Jaune's powers function *currently*. I'm talking near the end of the series. By that point Jaune's semblance my evolve to accomplish something similar. Paladins could accomplish similar feats and even revive people.

>>1611 >Paladins could accomplish similar feats and even revive people. I guess it's possible, but that feels a bit TOO overpowered. Then again given they're up against Salem, perhaps not.

>>1454 I really do like this exploration of the idea. >Just the look of PAIN in Cinder's eye gave Jaune pause.

Wow. A lot more people than I thought genuinely believe in Knightfall being canon. This ship has slowly becoming more popular lately and I don't understand why. Just curious but what convinces you that this is gonna be a thing? What would become of Jaune's character if he actually did this? would he be going over to the villains side? would his friends hate him? If this is supposed to be a thing what do you expect to happen in V10(if we ever get it)?

>>1699 > what convinces you that this is gonna be a thing? Personally, I don't really care if it becomes canon or not considering the state of current canon now, I just like the ship and it's potential dynamic. >What would become of Jaune's character if he actually did this? I know some people would disagree but I like to think Jaune's character is more flexible than that depending on plot developments. >would he be going over to the villains side? This is not really necessary for KF >would his friends hate him? Most likely, but I don't think they'll hate him forever.

>>1699 >This ship has slowly becoming more popular lately and I don't understand why. No clue. I came to KnightFall because enemy-to-lover stories are interesting. Wholesome romances are good too (like Arkos), but it's difficult to find a story focused on wholesome romance that doesn't just feel like saccharine fluff. It's why the best Lancaster stories have really good primary plots and romance as a subplot. Enemies-Lovers comes with plot; the path to such romance blossoming inherently has twists and turns. >what convinces you that this is gonna be a thing? Personally I think it fits Jaune's character arc. He wanted to be the hero and learned that heroism is more than just looking cool while killing monsters. One must want to help save people unconditionally, no matter how inglorious it seems (hence him working a traffic stop). Through the story Jaune overcomes his weaknesses and matures as a man. He learns to let go of hatred because, as Kipling said in If, "being hated, don't give way to hating". Jaune is a hero, he saves people and helps them save themselves (Aura Amp). Its why I think he'll save Cinder from her darkness, not through (just) literal power, but through humanity. Cinder's aim is power. She wants it because at heart she's still an enslaved orphan girl from Atlas seeking to feel safe and free, thinking power will provide that, until her ambition makes her lose sight of it. Salem's words in V1E1 "There is no victory in strength" implies her path being wrong and that Power will not beat Cinder or Salem, fire won't defeat fire. >would he be going over to the villains side? Absolutely not. I know there's some crackshots and stuff that do this for fun, but thematically Jaune isn't that type. He isn't going over to the Villain's side, he's pulling the villain onto HIS side. >would his friends hate him? Some maybe, I doubt his closest friends would. Ren is too level-headed, Nora is too optimistic and Ruby is all about second chances and being a hero too. >what do you expect to happen in V10 Good question. Perhaps something similar to Oscar and Hazel's interaction, where Cinder captures Jaune or perhaps they fight and end up stranded in the desert of Vacuo. Or a reverse; Cinder is captured and Jaune talks to her, now tempered by his decades as the Rusted Knight. Eventually It'd lead to Cinder going against Salem (she clearly hates her) helping take down Remnant's eternal, existential threat, and so redeeming herself. I'm being very bare bones here, but I hope you get my gist.

Found this weirdness today: https://www.db-ryportal.com/post/what-if-cinder-fall-fell-in-love-part-1-a-rwby-what-if

>>1699 V9 gave some important thematical crumbs that tie it all together. You have both Neo's arc about revenge being hollow, which makes Jaune seeking revenge against Cinder unlikely as well. But more importantly you have Jaune's arc with Alyx who shares lot of parallels with Cinder. This combined with Jaune and Cinder's earlier Ozma and Salem parallels (among other things like various literary allusions) makes it narratively plausible twist. It doesn't make sense for Jaune to become a villain in any capacity. If Knightfall happens it will happen as Cinder's redemption arc. I don't think any of this damages Jaune's character, it builds on lessons he learned in V9. There wouls definitely be some at least temporary frictions between Jaune and his friends. But that's to be expected, his journey started with him being rule breaker and it wouldn't be the first time his antics pissed off his friends. After all, he is Joan of Arc, heretic. Probably not V10 development. I think Vacuo arc will lay out some foundations, but this is most likely to happen when story starts revolving around finding Cinder's Relic. I think Jaune might get kidnapped by Cinder during Vacuo arc.

>>1699 I considered it an interesting idea years ago but never really considered it likely to happen. V9 changed everything. V9 didn't just make it possible it made Knightfall an inevitability within the story. It made it an absolute necessity for resolving the plot. The idea of Jaune getting revenge against Cinder was utterly rejected in V9 while the story propped up ideas like how flimsy the title of heroes & villains are and made Jaune learn a lesson about seeing past them to see who a person really is. On top of that pretty much outright stated that love is the means through which the conflict will be resolved. It 100% sets him up to not see Cinder as a villain and heal the pain that motivates her to do horrible things. There are a handful of much longer posts on the internet that go in depth with this sort of thing. (Not saying you need to read them just pointing out that they're out there if you're interested.) Thats the only way this gets resolved. I know a lot of people hate that but if they were honest with themselves they'd know that Jaune isn't being set up to kill her either. This isn't about preferences this is about looking at the story for what it actually is. She's been beaten in 1v1 combat, she's been jumped, and defeated multiple times. Jumping her again "but harder" isn't gonna work because the story is trying to get across that "fighting" isn't the point. The whole point is to resolve the emotional conflict within these characters(Cinder & Salem). If the story were about Jaune being powerful enough to get revenge like you'd typically see in a shounen battle manga or something that would be fine but we need to acknowledge the reality that RWBY simply isn't that kind of story. As others have said Jaune isn't betraying his friends or going over to the villains side. He's pulling the "villain" to his side not the other way around. I imagine most of his friends would be mad at him while some(Like Ren or Blake) would understand. As for why it's getting more popular it's because more and more people are slowly starting to see this is the case. I've even started to see people begrudgingly admit that Jaune might save Cinder in the end even though they hate it. Because as much as they hate the idea they can't actually refute it. Now as a caveat to some people it's important to keep in mind that even if Knightfall happens...that doesn't mean it will be endgame for Jaune. They could very well make it happen and then STILL kill Cinder off anyway. I don't think they will but it's a possibility and I have to acknowledge it.

>>1597 >>1568 Honestly I think the Naruto parallels go beyond this for Jaune. We know Monty took some inspiration from Naruto in various scenes, just as there are One Piece and Hunter x Hunter references (example being Ninjas of Love as a nod to Jiraiya's Icha-Icha series). Everyone jokes about Jaune being a stereotypical shonen protag, but ironically many of the most iconic shonen protagonists of actually break many shonen stereotype tropes assigned to them, Naruto and Luffy in particular. Jaune does too. Jaune is more like Naruto in both a physical and I think thematic sense (blonde, blue-eyed dead-last under-dog with hidden potential unlocked by hard work). A big theme in Naruto is that no man is an island, that to accomplish widescale good (Peace) takes people working together to achieve it, which is why we have the Ninja Alliance fighting against Akatsuki and not just Dragon Ball Z style fights between primary characters off the bat. Hell, even in the end of the series the characters combine forces and use tactics to beat a powerful enemy. And an important part of Naruto's development is connecting with others. He beats Gaara in a fight, sure, but his true victory there is that he flips Gaara out of his psychosis. He beat Pain by a hair, but it was his compassion and willingness to connect, to end the cycle of hatred that made Nagato revive Konoha. It was this idealistic view that Naruto developed as he grew that let him stand up to and redeem Obito. And Jaune I think is also like this, that against the odds he'll reach out to her soul, and like awakening an aura, revive Cinder's humanity, buried under decades of resentment of society and the craving for power. .

>>1730 Right and as frustrating or "generic" as some people would claim that it is, it's the only thing the story has been building towards. Much like Jaune needs to reach out to Cinder, Ruby needs to reach out to Salem. Also I would add that RWBY also shares some thematic similarities with Bleach when it comes to themes of The Heart and it's ideas about Death. Though thats probably worth it's own separate discussion.

>>1699 >Just curious but what convinces you that this is gonna be a thing? I was convinced by Volume 8. There are a lot of different things that made me consider it. I do think that Volume 9's ending, particularly with Alyx, and the Blacksmith's speech, is a good enough reason to suspect that we will get Cinder's redemption, and that Jaune will have a role in it. I do see Jaune and Cinder as being symbollically connected, as opposites in a lot of ways, both visually in terms of design, and esoterically. You also just have to come to terms with the fact that there's not all that much else to do with them, as weird as that sounds. Jaune has to be given another challenge, something that makes him become more than he is. He's learned to forgive himself for his own mistakes, and he can learn to forgive and support others in moving past their own. With Cinder it's arguably even more acute. She's already degenerated so much from the earlier volumes, she's more cruel and ruthless and less thinking. She's becoming a monster. Either she goes dowin fully on that path, and becomes the equivalent of Smeagol, protecting and obsessing over her own power, or something shifts in her, and the spiritual daughter of Salem and Ozma comes back into the fold and finally accepts her responsibilities as a Maiden. It's also worth pointing out that Knightfall would actually contribute to the plot and resolution of the series in a meaningful way, which you would be hard pressed to say for other Jaune ships. Monty said that "good romance is earned" and in this case that romance would be earned in blood, sweat and tears. >What would become of Jaune's character if he actually did this? would he be going over to the villains side? would his friends hate him? I think most everyone who regards Knightfall seriously imagines it as occuring through way of Cinder and Jaune interacting as part of a broader narrative of Cinder's redemption. So Jaune would not be going over to the villains side. I see that as totally implausible, we've already had Ironwood's fall, a tragic enough story, there's no reason for Jaune to repeat that with the position he is in. As for his friends, I don't think they would hate him for being with Cinder. In a more rational world, Cinder would be given a life (or death) sentence for her crimes. And all of Jaune's friends would hate her and think he's gone insane. But RWBY is not that rational world, Ilia and Emerald have both done things nearly as bad, and nobody has had any trouble forgiving them - and in Emerald's case she hadn't even done anything good yet! If Cinder plays a role in saving the world, and she's suitably penitent for her sins, of which there are many, then I think most people would get over it eventually. >If this is supposed to be a thing what do you expect to happen in V10(if we ever get it)? I strongly believe that should Knightfall happen, it's something that culminates in the final volume. So I don't see any reason for much to happen in Volume 10, when we aren't even onto the relic of choice. I do expect one thing to happen though, progress towards Mercury's redemption, and Emercury. If Mercury's redemption / Emercury doesn't happen, then I think Knightfall is pretty fucked, and if it does happen, then Knightfall looks exceedingly likely. I would be completely stunned if Merc wasn't rescued from Tyrian one way or another, of course. >>1649 >Cinder with their emblem's tattoo'd Normally I hate tats with a passion but that combined with the faces is very cute. >Jaune rock hard while he's going down on her Kino. I only wish Cinder had a skinner. taller look in all the r34, I get making her busty turns people on and all but she has more of a gracile and long build in the show.. She's kind of an exception to the rule in that regard.

>>1715 I don't know much about how themes work but the way you guys explain it seems to make sense. I can't imagine the writers letting Jaune get a powerup and kill Cinder with force, since they are the type of people who would call that "tOxiC MAsCuLiNiTy" so it makes far more sense that they would go full Steven Universe on us and make the story about "feelings" and shit. Fuck.

>>1757 It's not "toxic masculinity" but it feels sorta anticlimactic, since at the end of the day Cinder is Salem's underling, not the primary villain >go full Steven Universe I doubt that: 1) SU's retardation makes any RWBY fuck ups seem like great writing, and the particular thing you refer to is even more idiotic. 2) It's kinda always been about that? The narrative of "No victory in strength" comes in V1E1. The narrative on emotion is literally inherent to the main enemy; Grimm. Negative emotions attract and empower them, positive emotions can keep you safe from them. Redemption is a classic, good story, given it's recurring theme in the Bible and the myths and legends of many cultures around the world. I personally would enjoy seeing Jaune end the series as a Redeemer a la Christ. The thing that makes us human is our ability to introspect and our compassion. Our tool using and other such abilities are just a different scaling of things other animals have done, simple more advanced. Compassion and Introspection however are rare in other animals. TL;DR: By making it about emotions and redemptions it thematically reflects humanity overcoming our own worst tendencies.

>>1757 I mean RWBY was kind of always in that boat. "No victory in strength," villain goons are attracted to negative emotions, main character has eyes powered by positive feelings. Look at the previous villains and how their story concluded. They either got killed by other villains or redeemed themselves. Only exceptions being Adam and Ironwood who continuously refused to back down. And this was before Blacksmith's speech how one act of kindness can change someone for better. It's not a coincidence that main villain can't be killed.

>>1776 >It's not "toxic masculinity" but it feels sorta anticlimactic Obviously not but these retards probably think it is. I agree that it would anticlimactic with the way they've written the story now. After going through everything you guys said it seems like RWBY is trying to setup some anti-violence peace narrative so it would be dumb if the answer was just becoming more powerful and obliterating Salem and Cinder with a kamehameha. If some shit like that was the answer it means we wasted our time on making Jaune weak, making Ironwood look stupid for having an army all of Ruby's "we need to work together" yapping when we could have just been focusing on giving everybody powerups. The more I think about it using force on Cinder just invalidates a good 99% of the story. Wouldnt it also mean that she was basically right? that power is everything and the only thing that anyone should care about? At that point why would anyone bash Cinder for only caring about power if the answer was to literally become her? >SU's retardation makes any RWBY fuck ups seem like great writing, Going to be honest with you I think RWBY is right down there with Steven Universe as some of the worst stories in existence. RWBY becoming mid would be a profound upgrade. >The narrative on emotion is literally inherent to the main enemy; Grimm. Negative emotions attract and empower them, positive emotions can keep you safe from them. Never thought about that but I guess you are right. Still SUPER corny though ngl. It means the answer to all this is hugs and kisses and love shit. >would enjoy seeing Jaune end the series as a Redeemer a la Christ. Agree with this though. This makes Jaune cool. Jaune = Jesus? I'll take it.

>>1816 Technically Ruby would be Jesus, V9 wasn't very subtle about it (Ruby's death aired day after Good Friday). But either way, Jaune's allusion as Joan of Arc positions him to be saintly figure.

>>1812 I wish the show was just about throwing hands tbh.

What makes you guys think all these allusions and themes even matter? Why should Jaune not kill Cinder because of a theme? I don't get how they're related.

>>1816 >I think RWBY is right down there with Steven Universe as some of the worst stories in existence Agree to disagree then, Personally I wouldn't be nearly as harsh, High Guardian Spice is proof of that. >SUPER corny Not really? I think it's just earnest. I'm tired of 'sarcastic badasses throwing hands' it's been done better many times before, and now we see it in every other edgy movie trying to replicate John Wick. >RWBY is trying to setup some anti-violence peace narrative It's less about anti-violence (or rather it shouldn't be) and more about how humanity shouldn't be at each others throats, that the phrase Homo Homini Lupus Est, doesn't need to be true. In the greater narrative it's meant to say that direct force isn't (always) the answer, that there are other ways. >making Jaune weak He's not though? He's not a meat-head action hero but he's not weak by far. Just not flashy. >Ironwood look stupid for having an army Ironwood got fucked because of a heel-face turn. Having an army wasn't the problem, the issue was that he thought he could beat Salem with it. >using force on Cinder just invalidates a good 99% of the story. Wouldnt it also mean that she was basically right? that power is everything and the only thing that anyone should care about? At that point why would anyone bash Cinder for only caring about power if the answer was to literally become her? Pretty much yes.

>>1821 >What makes you guys think all these allusions and themes even matter Because we see them reflected in the actual story telling. Pyrrha is an Achilles reference, and she dies like Achilles. Jaune's Joan of Arc allusion also is reflected in different parts of the story. Cinder's story is a more recent addition and again in RWBY fashion makes a play on the Cinderella story. Adding a twist, as fitting for a story that repeatedly takes inspiration from other stories; i.e. metafiction >Why should Jaune not kill Cinder because of a theme? The theme is the primary idea the story is trying to tell. Going against the theme at the climax of the story is bad writing. It's essentially makes the story sanctimonious and pointless. It's like shifting up into the third gear when driving, only to suddenly put the car in reverse with no warning. The story gets FUBAR.

>>1821 Because thats literally how storytelling works? Themes dictate the course of the story. Plot and the character arcs are just reflections of the theme. Like for example One Piece is about freedom and dreams, thus you see freedom and dreams reflected in the characters arcs and in every major plot line of the story. With RWBY one of the themes is "no victory in strength" and you see that reflected in the plot. Winning fights(albeit necessary for survival) ultimately doesn't solve or resolve any conflict in the series. In V5 Raven & Cinder are having this epic magical duel, and while Raven comes out on top she ultimately loses in the end. Not to physical blows but harsh words from her daughter that strike her in the heart. You see this in the arcs of Jaune & Ren who both had arcs where they tried to focus on training harder and improving their combat ability. Jaune trains hard in V4/V5 but ultimately his true growth doesn't come from combat and his semblance in it's infant stage is seemingly non-violent. Ren experience the same in Atlas where he trained relentlessly to become stronger and pushed himself to be better only to fail every time. Then ultimately his true growth comes in the form of a softer non-combat ability that lets him see and understand people's emotions. This is also encapsulated in how Ironwood's huge army, the strongest military force on remnant is ultimately useless against Salem's horde. Again even with Cinder. What keeps happening? She's been defeated, she's been jumped, ganged up on and nearly killed multiple times. Has any of it stopped her? Has any of it changed her mind? No. Of course not. In fact "defeating" her only makes her worse. So why would "defeating" her be the answer to the problem? Again themes are a reoccurring pattern throughout the story. It can be stated outright with exposition or conveyed through symbolism but it's always backed up by the actions and events throughout the story. Thats how it's reinforced. So if the authors are reinforcing this idea throughout their narrative THIS often that means it's important and something we should take seriously. If a writer is constantly telling you that violence isn't the answer then violence most likely isn't going to be the thing that resolves the story. This doesn't require any faith in the writers nor any belief that the writers are geniuses. It's just basic pattern recognition. Common sense.

>>1821 We do make a presupposition I suppose, that RWBY is a product of "intelligent design" - that it's themes and allusions actually reflect the underlying purpose of the show. But I mean, look at it from a different perspective, forget themes and symbolism for a moment: Here's how villains in RWBY actually died: >Roman: killed by a Grimm attracted by his own negative emotions >Leonardo: killed by Salem through a Grimm >Adam: killed by Yang and Blake >Hazel: sacrificing himself to hold Salem down for Oscar >Jacques: killed by Ironwood >Watts: left to die in the command centre as Atlas collapsed >Curious: killed by Jabberwock clones Most villains are killed more or less as a direct consequence of their own actions. It's rare for a hero to kill a villain, in Hazel's case I wouldn't count it. In the case of Blake and Yang, it is more or less self defense, and even then Blake feels remorse and neither takes any pleasure in it. Say I take the point that our analysis is wrong and irrelevant to the story. Given how villains have ended up, Jaune (or Ruby) killing Cinder in some heroic, or cathartic manner would be a big exception to the rule to all the other deaths in the series. I would much sooner expect that Cinder's Grimm parasite canabilizes her, after she refuses help from a hero.

>>1840 That ignores other half of villains. Ilia and WF radicals were given a second chance despite trying to murder Blake and her family in that same story arc. Emerald was given second a chance despite being Cinder's loyal henchman and even saving her few episodes prior Ace Ops were given a second chance despite them trying to nuke Mantle Neo was given a second chance despite torturing Ruby into commiting suicide. Even minor V9 villains like Red Prince were shown to be changing for better in RWBY Beyond episode. Show is absolutely willing to extend a hand to certain villains as long as they are willing to change. That's what conclusion of Alyx' story was about.

>>1844 I'm making a statement about the villains who have been killed, to be fair to the doubters, Cinder is more like the villains who got killed than Emerald or Ilia in terms of the scale and intentionality of her actions. The show is willing to lend a hand to people who are willing to change, I'm just saying that even if you think Cinder is going to be treated like these arguably more serious viillains, it still seems unlikely that Jaune is going to kill her. I do think Cinder will be redeemed, and people are going to lend a hand to her, which she'll eventually accept. But if she does die, it's going to be a tragic and needless death as a result of refusing help, not from her finally getting beaten in some dramatic fashion.

>>1844 >>1850 I'd like to add that Cinder definitely has to be saved even if she appears like one of those other villains. Because converting Cinder is going to be the biggest thematic example of the transformative power of love in the story. If you only used it on lesser foes it doesn't hit as hard or get the message across. Cinder is the ultimate example of how even some of the most broken characters can be healed and change. If not then they would have just killed her off a long time ago as another villain to be slain.

Anybody have any thoughts on what happens after Jaune saves Cinder? What do they do after that in your opinion? How do they even start being together? Especially with Cinder's utter lack of functional relationships.

>>1852 Cinder's death is just kind of anti-climactic if she's killed. I mean it would mean her story is basically: The trafficked orphan was, enslaved, abused, hunted down, tortured, and then murdered. The end. The fuck is that? Thats not a story. Thats just a bunch of terrible shit happening until she dies. Theres no meaning in any of that it's just suffering for suffering's sake. RWBY is clearly not trying to be that nihilistic.

>>1876 Fans who want Cinder to just be killed outright are generally low iq. It goes against the set up of her story, even if that set up is very late

>>1876 I think one of the bigger issues I have is that other characters never answer her story in a meaningful way. At least with someone with Adam you have Ilia who suffered similar experience but ended up choosing a different path in the end. With Cinder not only is there nobody like her, her foils made similar choices she dis when placed in similar scenario. V9 isolated and abused Ruby, she killed herself. Yeah, she couldn't deal with what Cinder experienced on daily basis. V8 put Jaune in position where he had to kill for greater good, and he did so. Unless story is turning into some pro euthanasia bs (can we check is RWBY sponsored by Canadian government) killing Cinder without offering her any second chances would be thematical mess.

>>1871 They leave. Jaune says goodbye to his friends and he & Cinder go off and find a nice place to settle down. I can't imagine he'd need a reason to play hero for anybody anymore since by saving Cinder(when no one else could or would) he would have effectively achieved his dream. I don't know if Jaune would introduce Cinder to his family or not but it could happen if theres room for it.

>>1896 That image is perfect. lmao.

>>1912 Same. Jaune's obsession with "needing" to be a Hero is about as toxic as Cinder's desire for power. By the end they would have hopefully found what they're really looking for.

I first thought this ship was just gooning but I was surprised to see people making actual arguments for it happening in the story. I can kind of see the Salem and Ozma thing they got going on but didn't V8 basically debunk this and confirm that Cinder will never be redeemed? I thought that was the point of the whole conversation with Watts?

>>1958 Eh, Watts was mostly just shitting on her and venting his frustrations. His rant is focused on her shortcomings and insecurities, it doesn't really give Cinder much to contemplate on. You can't really shout "you are unworthy" at someone with self worth issues and hope they'll change because of that. Watts is just giving a different spin on what Madame and Salem already told her. Cinder needs opposite, someone to assure her she is already worthy and she doesn't need to pursue Maiden powers to accomplish that. And that's something that makes sense for Jaune to tell her. It creates contrast of her enemy telling her she is worthy while she was told her entire life she was worthless by people around her. It also makes sense as culmination of Jaune's arc, someone who also perceived his worth through strength (him saying he doesn't matter in V5). And for good measure it also makes sense allusion wise since Joan of Arc encouraged French King (who has lot of Cinder parallel) to continue the fight by assuring him of his worth.

>>1958 >I thought that was the point of the whole conversation with Watts? Personally I think her conversation with Watts was a matter of hardening resolve for her but also to give her a wake-up call to step back from her self-destructive method of going head-on against her opponents instead of trickery like she used to.

>>1958 I have no idea why some people think Watts's speech was supposed to get Cinder to change. He was NOT asking her to change or be a better person. He was asking her to be worse. And that was what happened. Cinder has literally never been offered redemption. By anyone.

>>1959 >>1961 Ok but what about Emerald? Couldn't Emerald work instead of Jaune?

>>2013 Won't work. She's a misogynist.

>>2013 Similar question to >>1383 with similar answers. Emerald should save Mercury. Long story short, Emerald being "in love" with Cinder in a romantic way is fanon; she was loyal to Cinder 'cause she took her off the streets. At best it was utterly unrequited and/or familial (the latter confirmed during EMercury conversations in Chibi and V8). Cinder's main source of pain has always come from other women (fitting for the Cinderella influence) so I doubt she'd put trust in redemption from another woman (or at least only another woman) to save her. Plus, Emerald was a sycophant minion, someone who adored Cinder, I doubt she'd take Em seriously; so Emerald offering 'redemption' to her would be weak at best from both in and out of the story. Emerald and Cinder does make for hot r34 though lol.

>>2013 Emerald doesn't work for the same reason that Mercury doesn't. There isn't enough emotional buildup/writing put into Emerald for it to have the emotional impact that Jaune does. That and Emerald doesn't really understand her. Much like her semblance puts other people into illusions crafted by her own mind, Emerald herself is under illusions about Cinder. She doesn't see who Cinder really is. Only what she imagines Cinder to better. As someone who can never see the real Cinder, theres no way Emerald would ever reach her. Whereas Jaune himself was deliberately given an arc where it showed him he needed to see past his own misconceptions and see the real person underneath to actually save somebody. That was the whole point of his arc with Alyx and the lesson he learned from that failure. So Jaune not only has the greater emotional impact but he's also only the one whose been given an arc that actually prepares him to do that. Not to mention being purposely made to live through Cinder's experience in order to relate to her.

>>2013 I'd say no. Emerald's arc isn't focused on answering Cinder's. Instead, it's almost opposite. She goes from lapdog completely devoted to Cinder, to someone questioning both herself and Cinder. Truth is Cinder simply doesn't care for Emerald (or perhaps Cinder can't show her care in healthy way) in the same way Emerald does for her. Emerald's arc is about finding someone who does, which is why I think her arc going forward will focus on Mercury, someone who helped her open her eyes. She will help him do the same. Additionally, I don't see Emerald as Cinder's last chance as some people like to portray her. Issue is that while Emerald was completely devoted to Cinder, she never understood Cinder. To quote certain shonen villain "Admiration is the emotion furthest from understanding."

Cinder is a villain. A bad guy. One of the enemy? she isn't just on the opposite side of this battle she's shown in V8 that she's committed to being evil. She learns to become more manipulative instead of caring about people. Why would that person ever go good? especially from Jaune's actions. How can he do anything to change her mind?

>>2071 >Cinder is a villain. A bad guy. One of the enemy? No shit. It's why it's called a redemption. Raven was also a villain, as was Emerald, as was Hazel. Ironwood and Lionheart became villains, with the latter outright betraying his friends and the world. >she isn't just on the opposite side of this battle Yeah, she is. >in V8 she's committed to being evil. In V8 we see her harden her resolve, yes, after abuse, insults and punishment from Tyrian, Watts and most importantly, Salem. >She learns to become more manipulative She was already manipulative; that is what she originally did in V1-3, she returned to form so to speak, moving away from brute force that she'd been employing as of late. >Why would that person ever go good? Why would a Ironwood turn evil? Why would Lionheart? Why would Winter side against Ironwood at the end? People are creatures of habit, and without something forcing them to change they don't usually want to, especially someone driven and ostracized as Cinder, who is dead-set on a path to power because that's all she knows to be reliable. Salem controls her because she has power, and the same applied to The Madame and it's how she views Ozpin and his group. She is also wrong, but someone will not know their folly if what they are surrounded by experiences that seem to confirm their views, as both her defeats and victories attest to. Force will not defeat Cinder, and killing her does not kill or end the problem that created her. >especially from Jaune's actions. How can he do anything to change her mind? Jaune's actions changed over V4-9. In V4/5 he was bent on vengeance, an unheroic attitude but Cinder forced him to be a healer. In V6-8 he became a protector. After V9, as he learned to accept his failures, accept himself, he finally finished becoming a man, and I predict at least, becomes a redeemer a la Jesus: To protect the innocent, heal the injured and save sinners. We see the beginnings of this with Emerald, as Jaune is among those that gives her a chance to redeem herself. Cinder is the next, perhaps final level. Jaune rising above, extending the hand of redemption is in direct contradiction to Cinder's world-view. Berserk has a great quote on this. "Man takes up the sword to protect the small injuries that burdened his heart, on a distant day beyond his memories. Man wields the sword to die with a smile on his face on a distant day beyond his dreams." The "man" in this case is Cinder. And yet there is no happiness found at the end of a blade. To be able to die with a smile on your face, to achieve beyond your dreams is to stop, to cast aside the blade and end the fighting the reasons for which have been forgotten. Because if not, eventually all we know is the fight. And to live in the fight is to never escape it. The same applies to Jaune, but whereas Cinder is in no position to come to this realization, Jaune is and can in turn pull her out of the darkness as well.

>>2071 Well yeah, she needs to be evil/villain for redemption to happen. I wouldn't say V8 has Cinder re-commit to evil or anything like that. It was more about her reflecting and changing her strategy. Truth is, Cinder didn't really have a choice in the matter since unlike someone like Emerald or Neo, she can't just walk away from Salem, she is kept on a leash. In twist of irony, she is Maiden of Choice with very little meaningful choice to be made. Cinder's deal with Salem is paralleled with Alyx' deal with Cat in V9 (human girl selfishly pursuing her goal makes a deal with immortal being abandoned by Gods). And like Cinder, Alyx throughout most of the volume was portrayed as iredeemably evil. Only for it to be revealed in the end that she went against her deal with Cat because she wanted to redeem herself and fix everything she broke. But nobody was there for Alyx in the end, so Cat killed her. That's foreshadowing for Cinder. First, give her a choice, make her realize she can do more than just be a villain. Second, have someone be there for her to help her make that change. Jaune failed Alyx, now he will finally step up as a hero and save Cinder from Salem.

>>2074 >>2078 Ok I don't have response to all of that but HOW is Jaune gonna change her mind when these behaviors have basically been engraved in her for life? Whats he gonna do? How can he of all people even reach her?

>>2082 >HOW is Jaune gonna change her mind when these behaviors have basically been engraved in her for life? Whats he gonna do? How can he of all people even reach her?

>>2082 >HOW is Jaune gonna change her mind when these behaviors have basically been engraved in her for life? Whats he gonna do? How can he of all people even reach her? Through Dick, Unity. Jokes aside, I've elaborated on this a bit in earlier posts. In essence I think it would be something like Naruto's Talk No Jutsu, perhaps with Ruby as a tag-team, not defeating her by force but by words. Or perhaps in another situation they cross paths in Vacuo and in a vulnerable moment Jaune spares her (she gets captured or injured). Perhaps an Oscar/Salem situation wherein rather than Oscar appealing to Hazel's humanity, it's Jaune conversing with Cinder, breaking down her walls when she's the one trying to extract information from him about the Relics or Team RWBY or whatever. Given the obsession with Destiny that Cinder has, there could be a mirror conversation where Jaune doesn't believe in it and rejects Cinder's thought process, and in doing so, causes her to truly question herself. Saying No instead of Yes. Asking "How are you so broken inside" but differently this time around, because he was broken once and now understands the suffering a broken person inflicts on themselves.

>>2082 Obviously no one can predict every little detail of how it will happen. Just like we know Ruby will eventually beat Salem in some way it doesn't mean we know HOW it's gonna go down. Same with this. Best we know is that it has to be the complete reverse of the Alyx scenario. Though the little moments building up to it are still up in the air.

What do you guys think happens in a hypothetical V10 in regards to knightfall? if the lessons he learned in the ever after were subtly about Cinder then that means that clearly SOMETHING needs to happen and soon.

>>2082 To paraphrase Blacksmith, one act of kidness can change a person. Jaune either sparing or helping Cinder when he has no reason to do so. Something to make Cinder question her views.

So basically the story of RWBY is decided by whoever hops on Jaunes dick ind the end? damn Jaune really the GOAT fr.

>>2118 >Jaune really the GOAT fr. You're just realizing this? >>2100 The Vacuo plot will probably progress similar to V8 Atlas; both direct assault and subterfuge from Salem, but delayed by Salem not being in Vacuo and the amassed Remnants of Humanity's forces. In the midst of all this Jaune like the rest of them, acts as a defender. Guarding supply caravans, slaying grimm etc. in the meantime Cinder is probably acting on Salem's orders... or perhaps like at Atlas quietly plotting on her own. Perhaps she and Jaune fight and captures him or something similar that lets them talk and demonstrate that he has grown past his lust for revege against her. He has let go, and forgives her. TL;DR: >>2112

>>2082 All these weirdos in here talking about 'themes' or 'narrative' when the real answer to saving Cinder is infinite backshots.

Jaune's healing is gonna be his most dangerous aspect of his semblance. Not just for saving Cinder but also defeating her.

Do you think that Cinder would like Juniper? The Jackalope not the team.

>>2161 Post related >>2160 >Jaune ability has the potential to be disgustingly powerful. He was basically given the Paladin starter pack. Which are experts at healing, tanking AND doing damage. They're the All rounders who can do basically everything. >It's just gonna take him a while to get there. >Theres also an anime called "The Wrong Way to Use Healing Magic" that goes out of it's way to show off just how terrifying a healer can be in combat. Healing is just one aspect of Jaune's powers but it's arguably the most fearsome. >I don't know about you guys but when I'm playing a video game usually the MOST terrifying moments are when I've spent hours damaging a boss and wearing them down to nothing only for them to INSTANTLY heal themselves back to full health like it's nothing. Most terrifying shit in the world imo. lol. >The ability to heal is what makes Unohana from Bleach a monster. Crazy bitch mastered healing just to make sure she can enjoy fights longer. >This would be blasphemy to say out loud anywhere else but I genuinely believe that Jaune with mastering of this ability can take down a maiden. In addition to Unohana I'd like to mention Naruto and his chakra cloak. It shields him from pretty must all damage, and what damage gets through, the cloak heals pretty much instantly and on the other side, it also lets Naruto do chakra constructs, like VIne Zeki did. PS. That pic is from Suicidal Battle God, right?

>>2182 >Do you think that Cinder would like Juniper? I don't think she'd care especially. I think she'd be alright with the Jackelope, but she's bonded to Jaune and vice versa.

>>2183 I would agree. Also the one who posted that comment was me. lol. The Naruto chakra cloak is an interesting idea but I'm not sure they'd go that route due to the animation budget. If they did it would likely be shaped like a Jackalope or an Archangel. Yes thats from Suicidal Battle God(also known as Doom Breaker) I think Lucius Giornetti is the perfect example of what perfect Adult Jaune is supposed to look like and not his fallen Rusted version which I consider to be a false version of Jaune since he's not the true Hero he's supposed to be. Jaune using Aura constructs is a REALLY interesting idea. One worth playing with. I think thats a skill he can probably learn from Weiss, in addition to learning Aura slashes from Blake.

>>2182 Probably. She'd be comfortable with Juniper simply because she was attached to Jaune.

>>2183 Naruto chakra cloak looks like it might be a bit too much for RWBY as a whole(too strong) and wasn't Vine's ability just his semblance and not something that other people can do?

>>2252 >Naruto chakra cloak looks like it might be a bit too much for RWBY as a whole(too strong) Technically Aura is over the body like a chakra cloak as is. It's why we only see real damage after it breaks/runs out. We see some people have insane Aura levels, like Hazel. Jaune is also described as having a lot from the get go, with no training (training and age can raise aura levels). Now add Aura Amp and it's theoretically limitless increase of Aura, (seen in one of the games). This is especially possible as Semblances evolve and improve, and I don't think we got such an evolution for Jaune yet. Since Aura also helps increase stamina it means that abusing the mechanics of his semblance Jaune becomes similarly OP to Naruto's cloak if not quite on the same scale, near-instantly healing anything that gets through his aura and blocking most else. >wasn't Vine's ability just his semblance and not something that other people can do? Technically yes, but he suggests to Jaune the idea of extending his aura (V7), implying that Vine's ability is just a grander version of what is technically possible already for anyone with aura and training.

>>2262 Also on the subject - Advanced Aura and Semblance usage: As an aside, I want to bring up Glyphs and other 'advanced' aura and semblance manipulation. Everyone knows Aura-Fu, Ren uses it and Fox Alistair uses it. There's also the Aura-sword swings launching compressed blades that we see from Qrow, Blake and Jaune. But there's also aura-shields/barriers. We see Weiss and Cinder use Aura as a barrier-shield when fighting. These are examples of 'advanced' aura manipulation I would think so why wouldn't that apply to semblances? I suggest that the Glyphs Glynda and Cinder use during their fights were advanced usage of Semblances, similar to Weiss's glyphs. We see Glynda using glyphs in the comics as well, such as locking a door and Weiss uses her own as a key. I believe it also depends on the Semblance a person possess' since I think it needs to be something that can be used to impact something tangible outside yourself; heat, gravity, etc. rather than something like Qrow's bad luck where it manipulates metaphysical things instead or Yang's strength boost which just overclocks the body temporarily. I'll wrote a while back about Ruby's semblance being way more OP than the writer's realize and applying it into glyphs would make it beyond OP. I'll repost that later. As a side note I seem to recall Semblances being somehow, somewhat related to the remnant of magic from the prior humanity of Oz and Salem's time.

The silliest thing about this theory isn't the idea that Jaune would get with Cinder. Knightfall is actually kinda dope. Whats really silly here is the idea that the writers would ever actually let Jaune do anything relevant. There is no way on this green earth that they let him do something crucial to the plot. Certainly not save a woman. Doesn't a man saving a woman go against the feminist ideology of the show?

>>2276 >Doesn't a man saving a woman go against the feminist ideology of the show? Eh, it depends. While they have a lib agenda in their writing, because it's multiple writers and other influences there's some based stuff coming through. Honestly compared to most contemporary shows with a feminist angle, RWBY is very, VERY light by comparison even in later Volumes. Even the later Volumes have nothing on the shit-shows like Legend of Korra or Steven Universe (which were contemporary to the early Volumes), let alone more modern shows getting aired like that Velma shitshow. I'll take V8 and V9 over any of those.

>>2276 Least nihilistic Jaune fan over here.

>>2276 >Doesn't a man saving a woman go against the feminist ideology of the show? >Qrow saving Ruby (and JNR) from Tyrian. >Jaune saving Weiss with his semblance. >Jaune saving Nora from the mech slap You tell me.

>>2276 Jaune already helped Penny pass maidenhood to Winter. That’s as important to the plot as anything anyone has done in the series. I find ceding ground to the most uncharitable Jaune hater to be on the whole totally unhelpful, there’s nothing anti feminist about men helping women, or men doing things that matter. Cinder’s redemption is ultimately in her own hands, in any case. All he can do is help facilitate it.

(Posting from a different location) >>2304 >Jaune already helped Penny pass maidenhood to Winter. Thats not really help. Im not sure assisted suicide counts as help. >there’s nothing anti feminist about men helping women, or men doing things that matter. It's a 100% anti-feminist for men to help/save women imo. That is literally the point of the whole rage against the damsel stuff. As many of them have explained women dont want and shouldnt need to be saved by some male hero. So if Jaune helps Cinder it makes her a damsel. Portrays her as someone who needs his help. A lot of them are not only going to hate this if it happens but also be outright offended. >>2283 There were caveats to those scenarios that make them passable. >Ruby saved Qrow in the end and then spent the rest of the volume carrying him. >That was more of an act of servitude and repentance for Jaune paying for his mistakes since he was the one that caused her to get hurt in the first place. And because he came onto her in the early volumes against her will. That last one I will grant you but it probably wasnt even necessary since we've seen Nora and other RWBY characters survive worse hits in early volumes.

>>2267 Advanced semblance application? Granting your semblance to other objects/people? You mean like Devil Fruit Awakening?

>>2262 It should also be noted that Hazel could re-charge his aura insanely fast like Jaune. Meaning that this is a technique/skill some people can have. >>2252 Naruto cloak aside, Vine wouldn't have brought up the skill to Jaune in the first place if it wasn't something he could learn. His semblance may be his own but external aura manipulation is clearly it's own technique.

>>2276 RWBY is a mixed bag when it comes down to obnoxious new age feminism. On one hand, show has heavy bias towards female characters when it comes down to redemption. Usually creating male and female villain that are similar but latter shown in much more sympathetic light (Emerald/Mercury, Ilia/Adam, Winter/Ironwood, upcoming Gillian/Jax). Seriously Mercury might end up being the only male villain that is gonna get redeemed without the need to sacrifice himself. But on the other hand, they are not so obnoxiously feminist that any male help is villified and seen as sign of weakness. Hell, whole story is in some way repeating Ozma's act of saving Salem from the tower. So Jaune helping Cinder wouldn't be contradictory (especially since Cinder's redemption has to include Ruby by default)

>>2306 >It's a 100% anti-feminist for men to help/save women imo. Depends; Would you consider Ellen Ripley anti-feminist? >women dont want and shouldnt need to be saved by some male hero. That's not what the message is, Cinder's story directly contradicts this. RWBY has numerous moments where men save women. >Jaune helps Cinder it makes her a damsel. Portrays her as someone who needs his help. A bit late for that when we see this already during her backstory. >There were caveats to those scenarios that make them passable. You can make excuses for every moment, doesn't change the fact that a man saves a woman. >Ruby saved Qrow in the end And she also was partially at fault that he got injured to begin with, and again, Nora didn't do shit to stop Tyrian. Ruby is the main character, it's kinda a necessity. >because he came onto her in the early volumes against her will That is a massive stretch. >it probably wasnt even necessary since we've seen Nora and other RWBY characters survive worse hits in early volumes. Like? I cannot, for the life of me, recall a scene where Nora takes a comparable hit, before or after. Other examples of men saving women >Sun saves Blake's ass during the Roman Torchwick fight at the docks and was an important part of V4, without his assist, the Sea Feilong wouldn't have been killed, without his assist Illia would have gotten Blake's scroll and without him Illia's goons would have dragged Blake off to Mistral why the White Fang killed her parents. >Pyrrha DIES because she rejects help from Jaune >Qrow is shown to be helping RNJR throughout V4, culling grimm and letting them be relatively unassaulted during their travels. >Qrow was important in giving the others a chance to stop Cordovin's mech >Qrow saved Yang and Ruby in their childhood from Yang's folly >Ren saved Nora with his semblance The list goes on and on.

>>2306 Look I don't know anything about what those particular people believe but regardless the writers of RWBY clearly have no issue letting male characters help female ones. Whether you believe it's an accidental part of their writing or not, bottom line is: it's there. So they're not gonna have a problem with letting Jaune help Cinder whether people on the internet think it's an affront to their ideology or not.

Cardin damn near broke his hand trying to punch Jaune. That was him using his semblance by accident. Imagine if it was on purpose. Controlled and intentional. I genuinely don't imagine many characters being able to get past it. It would be perfect for surviving against Cinder's attacks.

What are you guys headcanon for Knightfall kids? Are there any fics I can read that have Knightfall kids?

>>2377 Check the Rentry for fics, but off the top of my head the only one with detailed OC kids is Hearth and Home by EmperorLuffy. There's pregnancies and babies in a few other fics such as A Monster's Marriage, and it's one-shot sequel, and The One Known By Many Names by Seraphina (all in the Rentry list of the OP). The only other I know of that technically has KnightFall kids is The Great Temporal Step-Sibling War, wherein the children of Jaune and (x-woman) all travel back in time from alternate futures and each is trying to get Jaune to go for their mom and not be erased, including Cinders'. Not exclusively Knightfall, but still a fun fic. >Personal headcanon As in what? What they look like? Names? How many? Gotta be a bit more specific.

>>2397 Hearth and Home and that one-shot sound the most interesting so I'll go check those out. But I'm mainly looking for a long-fic that focuses on them and their kids. >>2397 >As in what? What they look like? Names? How many? Yes all of that and what are their semblances? Whats their future like? >>2337 >Cardin damn near broke his hand trying to punch Jaune. That was him using his semblance by accident. Whats funny about that moment is that a lot of people don't acknowledge that Oz said it takes time and control to activate your aura at will. Yet Jaune could use his instinctively. His aura just flows off him naturally.

>>2400 >But I'm mainly looking for a long-fic that focuses on them and their kids. That would be Hearth and Home, though it's a bit AU with lore. >Yes all of that Honestly since I plan on using them in my fic(s) I'm gonna with-hold the details. Name-wise I think Ash/Ashley can be a bit on the nose as names, but nothing technically wrong with them, and an obvious choice, though not my first one. Number wise I think at least two, possibly more, but given Jaune's experience as an only son with a lot of siblings, I think he might not want to have THAT many kids, memes aside. Semblances is difficult to predict, since they're not usually inherited or related. Yang and Raven have completely different semblances, as do Qrow and Raven. On the other hand Neptune and his brother have water-related semblances, although they are different in effect. Semblances are related to the soul of the person, a reflection of it and a person's mind in some ways. It's possible they'd have a fire/heat related semblance or an Aura enhancing semblance, but it's just as possible for one to have a flight semblance or something. For their future, I think they'd want to be like their parents or other 'cool' people, because that's what most well-adjusted young kids are like, so Huntsmen/Huntresses. With such a controversial ship, I would assume that their kids might have a tough time growing up, perhaps ostracized from others a little, likely sheltered by their parents after their mutual experiences in life. Honestly can't go into detail because then I'd ruin my own writing lol.

>>2400 Yeah there aren't that many fics that focus on that. That's one of the reasons why Hearth and Home was even written. Knightfall family life ends up being either in epilogue chapter or in one shot story. Which is a bit shame, since there are interesting concepts you can explore there. Like Cinder trying to be a good parent or maybe something like her children finding out who she was. As for children headcanons there are many routes you can go with it. Variations of Ash and Char fit well, being both color shades, some fairy tale allusions, as well as reflecting them being Cinder's children. There is no rules for Semblances in verse. For example Qrow and Raven have completely different Semblances despite being twins while Schnee Semblance is inheritable. So you can kind of give their children whatever, or maybe fuse their Semblances into something like boosting Aura via heat.

>>2400 >As in what? What they look like? Names? How many? >Yes all of that and what are their semblances? Whats their future like? At least 3. Possibly 4. Their futures are varied. One would probably want to be a Huntsman. I can se him becoming world renowned as a Hero. Though I imagine he'd eventually be executed. Another would probably go into business. Maybe end up becoming a revolutionary somewhere down the line if he sees more people having their freedoms stolen from them like his mother. Another would probably go in a completely different direction than either of his parents and choose his own path. If I include a girl, she would probably want to be a Knight like her father. As for semblances I'd definitely let one of them use fire. Theres a lot of cool things that are never explored with Cinder's semblance that I think can be explored with one of her children. Another would probably have his father's semblance or even no semblance. I'm undecided. I'd definitely have this one use a shield in combat. Protector Paladin. Though he fights more like Captain America than your usual Knight. The last one would probably have a simple ability. Inspired from another series but also represents an aspect of both of his parents. Their determination and their ability to bounce back from hardship. Maybe he'd even feel insecure a little bit because he got something completely different from his parents and his brothers. Though out of all the children he'd develop his ability the most and go the furthest of any of them. I'm not too picky about names it's mostly gonna be whatever works thematically for the story I'm writing or whatever I feel fits the characters. I try not to make them just copies of their parents names. If they're gonna reflect their parents I'd rather show that in their character. I feel like their names should be about them and what makes THEM unique as characters. After all most characters in RWBY don't have names that reflect their parents. Biggest example of that being Ruby herself. >>2400 >Whats funny about that moment is that a lot of people don't acknowledge that Oz said it takes time and control to activate your aura at will. Yet Jaune could use his instinctively. His aura just flows off him naturally. Indeed. Jaune's Aura was always active. He didn't have to concentrate to activate it like most characters. This is why I used to compare him to Ichigo in that sense. Theres that scene where Uryuu points out that he's supposed to turn off his spirit energy like a normal person but then Ichigo explains that he can't do that. He's got so much of it that he simply couldn't turn it off even if he wanted to. Thats what I see being the case with Jaune.

>>2402 >Number wise I think at least two, possibly more, but given Jaune's experience as an only son with a lot of siblings, I think he might not want to have THAT many kids, memes aside. Why do you think that Jaune wouldn't want a lot of kids? I dont think he's ever said anything to suggest that he dislikes his large family.

>>2377 Cinder, in the present timeline, is one of the most powerful people in the world. Jaune is also a trained hunstman and leader of a team. If major threats to the world persist, they aren't going to lead a lifestyle that is conducive to being good parents, at all. Though I could see them having a kid anyway I think they would feel a lot of guilt about not being good enough parents given they can't fully dedicate themselves to fatherhood/motherhood. Particularly with Cinder, tbh. If the world is safe, and they can find good jobs that keep them relatively in one place, and with family - (such as in an academy in Argus), then I could see them having a lot of kids. But I think it's more a circumstantial question than one to do with their character.

>>2432 That assumes a lot. Would Jaune and Cinder live in a city or would they live in a village outside the kingdoms? their lifestyle would depend on that. Because what if they don't need jobs and just hunt for food? If Cinder is a maiden she can potentially just use magic to magic them a house into existence. So they wouldn't even need to pay rent. Would Cinder ever work as a huntress even as a maiden? It's easy to assume Jaune would since it was always his dream but I can't see Cinder getting a job.

Holy fucking crap theres THIS many fans of Knightfall??? I have nothing against the ship I just....WOW. What is causing this explosion of Jaune x Cinder love?

>>2449 >Holy fucking crap theres THIS many fans of Knightfall??? We've always been around silently back in trash because whenever Knightfall gets brought up there, a single schizo anti gets pissy about it and shuts down any related discussion. Contrary to what they believe, Knightfall isn't some taboo ship that is unanimously hated by all of RWBYg, but it is a valid ship comparable to Arkos in plot-relevance.

>>2449 We exist. We generally lurk in our caves out of sight. Generally you don't see Knightfall fans in the open since lot of discussions regarding it tend to be bad faith or strawmans. People ship it for various reasons, but there are more and more canon believers after volumes 8 and 9.

I have 2 questions: 1.) What is the best fic for getting into Knightfall? 2.) How do yall think Nora & Ren will react to Cinder?

>>2457 Depends on what you want. If you are interested in enemies to lovers romance I would recommand The Distance Which Fools the Skimming Eye on AO3 (most stories by onewomancitadel are good starting point since author is Knightfall canon believer) I think Nora would be pissed while Ren would be more understanding since he can read emotions.

>>2457 >1.) What is the best fic for getting into Knightfall? Either Distance Which Fools the Skimming Eye or Dinner with the Nemesis. Theres a link to the rentry site up top has them all listed. >2.) How do yall think Nora & Ren will react to Cinder? Same as the user above said. Ren can read emotions so he's going to be the most understanding out of all Jaune's friends including Team RWBY because he'd know their feelings are real. Blake to an extent would understand too being a former terrorist herself who'd just recently gotten into a relationship with a blonde. Everyone else though? They're likely to be pissed.

I apologize if this was mentioned already I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm curious why you guys think that this makes more sense than him being with any of the girls from Team RWBY? Is it strictly preference or is it something you see in the story?

>>2438 I can’t imagine them not wanting to contribute to civilisation in some way even if the conflict has died down. Particularly Cinder, given how much guilt she’s going to feel for her actions. Living in the middle of nowhere and using magic to make their own lives easier seems like it’s such a waste to me. Cinder has always been ambitious as well, even when she cuts out the chuuni shtick and need for power I think she’ll still enjoy leadership. Her running a tailoring shop could be fitting (pun intended). >>2470 You would probably get a more complete answer by just scrolling up and reading, but I guess the simplest answer for me is that it’s something I see in the story. I don’t see how Lancaster or Whiteknight could add to the story, and deepen the characters in the same way that Knightfall can. It’s the most ambitious ship they can do, and it would conclude the series in a way that would be in keeping with its other themes, perhaps most significantly that people can have wildly varying interpretations of the same story and characters. Because that is what would happen.

>>2470 Story reasons. Although it's also my favorite ship. There are lot of angles you can look at: They can be seen as Salem's and Ozma's relationship going in reverse, creating enemies to lovers story to heal the wound created by lovers to enemies conflict. Or as a version of in-universe Indecisive King fairy tale with Jaune taking the role of Widow and Cinder role of King. Or a twist on Joan of Arc story with Jaune's Joan redeeming flawed King and being declared a heretic. In the end burning, but not on stake, but instead flame of passion Or as twist on Cinderella story with Jaune's Prince finding unlikeliest bride and saving her from her abusive stepmother. Or even colors. Jaune's eyes are blue, Cinder's orange, complimentary colors (similar thing as with Bees). You even have Bees and TaiRaven parallel with Jaune and Cinder also being named after color yellow and black respectively.

>>2470 The first and most important reason is storytelling. I am surprisingly not too big on needing or having romance in stories. There are only a handful of romances in fiction I actually care about(Shinichi Kudo x Shiho Miyano, Superman x Wonder Woman, Asta x Ichika etc.) My mindset is more of: if it HAS to be there it better be THE most compelling story possible. Otherwise whats the point? I'm not so simple minded or superficial as to randomly put two characters together because I think they're cute. It has to matter. It has to actually impact the story. It has to actually be able to develop both characters. Otherwise it's a distraction. A waste of time. So when I think about romance, if there has to be one in the story: I'm always an advocate for the one that offers the most compelling narrative that actually adds to the story. Thats Knightfall. It explores all the major themes of the story and offers by far THE most dramatic, high stakes romance with actual dramatic impact on the story and plot. While also requiring massive development for both characters. Other ships don't do that. Other ships at best you can go "it's cute" and not much else. They're derivative and would distract from the story. While Knightfall has the potential to literally resolve the plot. It's also something I see within the story as we've discussed above.

>>2477 >I can’t imagine them not wanting to contribute to civilization in some way even if the conflict has died down. I could very easily imagine that. I mean technically speaking it's not like they owe anybody anything. But I can understand seeing her as feeling guilty afterwards considering she's meant to be a parallel to Alyx. The same Alyx who committed horrible crimes but finally at the last minute felt bad for what she did. Ambition is another good point but it's hard to imagine what she could possibly be ambitious over in a fallen world. >You would probably get a more complete answer by just scrolling up and reading, but I guess the simplest answer for me is that it’s something I see in the story. I don’t see how Lancaster or Whiteknight could add to the story, and deepen the characters in the same way that Knightfall can. To add to this, can anybody imagine what it would be like if Lancaster happened? What would be different? The answer is literally nothing. They'd still have to deal with Salem. They'd continue on that mission same as usual. Nothing changes. At that point theres no difference between dating and not dating. The show couldn't focus on it because there are far bigger things going on. Same goes for White Knight. You might get a few seconds of "cute" scenes but thats about it. What would be the point in doing that? Knightfall on the other hand directly affects the plot. It wouldn't distract from the story it would BE the story.

>>2462 They cute

>>2497 LOL

Knightfall allusion interconnectedness

<Cinder RWBY Chibi Episode I see a lot of people use this to claim that Cinder is bi. Theres no issue if she is but I think all these takes are missing the point. If we are to take this seriously, I think the more important takeaway here is that Cinder has never been loved and is SO starved for affection that she relishes even the slightest compliments. She just wants to be valued and appreciated.

>>2512 RWBY Chibi also sets her up with Taiyang, so...

>>2524 Proof that she'd be attracted to Rusted DILF Jaune

Cinder would absolutely simp for DILF Rusted Juane. Everybody does. Also more importantly: It's been confirmed that Cinder has pictures of Jaune on her phone.

I'm autistic, but I always try to consider whether or not the people involved would make good parents. Jaune I think would make a good father, but would cinder actually make a good mom? In my head, because of her childhood, she wouldn't know wtf to do if she has kids.

>>2532 >would cinder actually make a good mom? In my head, because of her childhood, she wouldn't know wtf to do if she has kids With mothers that have bad childhoods you have 2 extremes in real life. Either they become the most protective, loving parent one could ask for, trying to do everything to save their children their pain they suffered at that age. OR they become abusive fucks. I think Cinder would be the former.

>>2532 Theres a fic that tries to explore that called Hearth & Home. Cinder has definitely been traumatized by her failed mothers but I've seen that be motivation for people to become better parents in real life. I think in a post-redemption world she would recognize that those who held power over her(her false mothers) were never truly powerful at all and she would no longer aim to be like them but rather surpass them. >>2533 Agreed. Cinder would only be abusive if she doesn't done the self-reflecting and undergone the necessary growth. She would need to be unaware that she's emulating Salem/Madam but much like other characters her arc is about breaking free of those bad parental figures.

>>2535 I forgot to add that there is a bit of parenting focus for both Jaune & Cinder respectively. Jaune gets his time with the kids in V7 and then in V9 part of arc is about how he needs to stop being a helicopter parent to the paper pleasers. He over protects out of a desire to keep them safe and hinders their growth. With Cinder & mothering theres a clear parenting arc there with her and Emerald & Mercury. They are basically reflections of her childhood self. Abused and abandoned children just like her who she ends up saving. They are even referred to as her kids a couple times if I recall correctly. The problem is she doesn't know how to love them properly or show compassion. So her kids essentially abandon her. Their arcs are the difference between love & power. Jaune has plenty of love but none of the power needed to protect. So he overcompensates. While Cinder has plenty of power but none of the compassion necessary to love her kids properly. Their journey isn't over yet of course. They each have the thing that the other person needs to grow. Which is why their arcs can complete each other so well. By the time their arcs are done they should have evolved into the parents they're supposed to be. Whats interesting is that the show isn't really doing this with any other characters. Just Jaune & Cinder.

What do you guys think a KnightFall wedding looks like?

>>2555 >555 Checked. Probably something small and private I would think. For all his bluster, Jaune is a relatively quiet, homely guy and Cinder, while having vanity, also seems to not want to be over-exposed unless it's something she controls and wants to flaunt. She sneaks around and acts covertly more than she does in the open direct conflict. She becomes more defiant when she gets the maiden powers, but more often than not, direct approaches don't work out for her, at least not fully (such as her assault on Fria, wherein she bulldozed past Winter and Penny easily, but was brought up short at the end). Direct open action works for her when she's had time to plan it out before acting, such as the V8 Finale, when her use of Jinn's final question lets her plan a surprise attack on RWBY-JNRO and acquire two Relics, BFR RWBYJ, and nearly acquire the Winter Maiden Powers.

>>2555 Not sure, but it would definitely be something unconventional. Knightfall IS a very UN-conventional pairing after all. Theres no way a wedding between them would be normal. Then again we have no idea what wedding ceremonies look like on remnant or if they even have them. I definitely agree with Rusty's take that it would be small and private though. When they get together I imagine they'd want to be left alone. Jaune might not be looked at so fondly by the rest of the Huntsman world after saving Cinder so I doubt he'd want to draw too much attention to either of them in case it attracts people who may hate Cinder. I have some headcanon of them doing it while temporarily being pirates but I could also imagine their wedding taking place in the middle of some other dramatic scenario like fighting a horde of Grimm or in the middle of a big battle with hundreds of attackers. Some kinda crazy off the walls type shit. As for who the guests would be I don't imagine many of his friends would even go. Ruby might. So would Ren. Genuinely not sure about the rest though.

If Cinder & Jaune were married and had regular jobs what would they be? Could either be a job in the city or a job in a small village.

>>2628 I'm guessing Jaune would probably stick to being a Huntsman... unless Grimm were entirely eliminated EoS. If so I'm guessing he'd probably be something like a militia officer or otherwise someone that would serve and protect community(ies). On one hand Cinder could be a Huntress... or she could retire entirely and make a home life, no longer pursuing or really using her power for active fighting.

>>2628 >If Cinder & Jaune were married and had regular jobs what would they be? Could either be a job in the city or a job in a small village. In a City or a Village, Jaune & Cinder could offer protection services as Huntsman/Body Guards. Jaune could potentially become a Doctor in the City but that one is more of a hopeful option and would require a LOT of work to pull off. Cinder is much more versatile due to her semblance. She can be a cook, an artist, a glass sculptor, do wood burning art, a blacksmith etc. Fire is just that versatile because it's one of the fundamental things that built society. Jaune's skillset only works with being Huntsman. Unless he gets a semblance evolution where he can heal ANYTHING instead of just tying it to Aura he's gonna be severely limited in what he can offer. (Could be a fireman or a cop if needed.) So it would more likely be him doing the Huntsman jobs while Cinder gets to relax and do something more creative. Which I think is fitting. She definitely deserves it after living a life of constant "kill or be killed" survival. And it would be really interesting to see her in a brand new context of trying to be cook or an artist. Rather than just being forced to fight again.

>>2628 Kind of hard to imagine Cinder getting a job. I can't see her working too well with others. I normally wouldn't want to stick her in the "housewife" role because of modern sentiments(I know making a strong independent woman a housewife makes people mad these days) but honestly it seems like a fitting alternative for Cinder. She'd have her own cozy place and wouldn't have to worry about anyone else besides Jaune and maybe their kids if she has any. Can Cinder even have kids? I thought she was rendered infertile because of the Grimm inside her or something. Or is that just fanon?

>>2645 I agree with most of that but Cinder is not infertile. Thats never been stated. I think you've been reading one too many bad fanfics. lol. Cinder can definitely have kids and I think she would be content with that being the mother her own poor mother figures could never be.

>>2647 My bad. It's hard to differentiate canon and fanon sometimes. There are so many fics that are better than the actual canon that their ideas end up replacing the actual story for me. The only Knightfall fic I've read is Stress Relief so I was probably thinking of that.

>>2645 Pure fanon nonsense. Salem had four children after she turned into a Grimm, so Cinder having Grimm arm shouldn't make her infertile. Especially since general assumption is that she will eventually have that arm removed.

>>2648 Yeah Stress Relief is where that fanon comes from. Check the Rentry (see the OP) for more fics. >>2649 >Salem had four children after she turned into a Grimm That's a good point too.

The amount of damage shitty fics like Stress Relief have done to the fandom's perception of Cinder cannot be understated.

>>2647 I have some Knightfall Questions: Who comes first the first time they have sex? Cinder or Jaune? Who takes care of their kids the most? If Cinder had kids what would she teach them? What does her brand of mothering look like? Which one of them says I love you first?

>>2674 Wouldn't call it shitty fic. However it being Couer fic and quite old fic (and Couer hates Cinder) meant it kind of froze perception of Cinder and Knightfall in V3 fanon territory. Which is bit annoying when it's prioritized over actual canon characterization we got in more recent volumes.

>>2682 1. Either Cinder or together. I like the idea of her being basically overloaded with emotions first time they do it. 2. In story so far they are kind of set as opposites during their "parenting" arcs. Cinder was too hands off with Emerald and Mercury, showing too little warmth. Jaune was way too involved with Paper Pleasers, stopping their growth. Both are meant to be lessons, but since they are not instantly learned, I'd say initially Jaune takes care more of them. Cinder gradually starts taking care of them more and more. 3. I assume Cinder would at least teach them self defense. Considering her uprbringing, she should be profficient in various house chores. I'd say her parenting style would shift from authoritarian to authoritative as she gains experience 4. Definitely Jaune. Cinder is type to rarely say it but always mean it.

>>2628 The obvious answer is just to be huntsmen - hybrid monster/criminal hunters, because that's where they have skills and passion. But if you mean other than fighting, their main advantage relative to the population is that they have super strength, durability, etc. In a big city they could be firefighters or dockworkers with a little training. Cinder is already into tailoring and glass work, so she might gravitate to those fields. >>2682 >Who comes first the first time they have sex? Cinder or Jaune? Jaune for sure, Cinder is way too hot for it to be any other way. Multiple times as well. >Who takes care of their kids the most? Cinder for me, I think she'd be very protective and nuturing. But Jaune would definitely do a lot more parenting than most men. >If Cinder had kids what would she teach them? What does her brand of mothering look like? She'd teach them anything and everything, but definitely a lot of fighting. I think she'd be pretty strict and try to push them to be their best. Jaune would mostly go along with it to show unity but he'd be more easy going and help Cinder chill out a little when one of them gets a B in class. >Which one of them says I love you first? Absolutely Jaune, he's saying it a dozen times before she has the confidence to return it.

>>2682 >Who comes first the first time they have sex? Cinder or Jaune? Jaune, but he keeps goin' >Who takes care of their kids the most? Both. Cinder probably being a stay-at-home mom, but Jaune probably doing the same a lot too. >Which one of them says I love you first? Cinder >If Cinder had kids what would she teach them? Probably survival training and defensive combat >What does her brand of mothering look like? Probably a mix of over-bearing protectiveness and pushing them to be excellent in all. Asian mom vibes essentially.

>>2682 >Who cums first? Definitely Cinder. I know some people think Jaune would but I think he can mostly control himself around pretty women and isn't as charmed by beauty to cum from how gorgeous he is. He's around pretty women all the time. No way he'd get caught up in how hot Cinder is imo. Even if he thinks she's REALLY gorgeous. Whereas Cinder is definitely unused to love and would be definitely be overwhelmed by her emotions during their first love making. Who takes care of their kids the most? Probably Cinder. Mostly because it's fitting for her since it's the opposite of her arc. She struggled with actually loving her pseudo children so it's fitting now that she'd be more hands on and involved with there development now. Jaune however needed to learn the opposite. He was too involved with his own pseudo kids development so it makes more sense that now he'd be more hands off. >What does she teach them? Cinder would teach her kids all sorts of survival stuff. She'd refuse to have her kids go through what she went through by being weak and powerless. So she'd make them strong and ready to survive anything. While also trying to love them as much as possible. I'm not sure what to call her brand of mothering. She'd want to be tough on them a bit so they grow up strong but also want to give them all of the love she never got as a child. So it's a bit of a mix. If Roman & Neo were alive and under her control I'd imagine she'd even have them teach her kids all kinds of other skills as well. >Who says I love you first? I imagine Jaune says I love you first but honestly i think it might be more interesting if Cinder says it first. Makes way more sense if it's Jaune but hearing that from Cinder would definitely be pretty shocking. Realistically she'd never say it out loud first. I can't imagine she'd ever admit her feelings so openly and directly before he did.

I'm not a big fan of this ship at all but at the same time I hope it will happen. The single greatest thing about this ship is how it will cause the entire fandom to explode if it happens. If those writers do nothing else I pray they do this. I just wanna watch the sheer chaos. The meltdowns will be glorious. How do you knightfall fans think the fanbase will react to knightfall becoming canon if it happens?

>>2707 >How do you knightfall fans think the fanbase will react to knightfall becoming canon if it happens? I'd expect there to be a pretty big meltdown if it became canon and Cinder and Jaune straight up kiss on screen.