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Anonymous 01/17/2022 (Mon) 11:06:07 No. 22253
Why is he so edgy?
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>>22253 Because HIS FAMILY IS DEAD!
Remember, no matter how edgy you can get you'll never be Batman who Laughs edgy.
>>22255 There are plenty of edgier things than that. Go read '90s Wolverine or Guy Gardner: Warrior. Go read the time The Incredible Hulk got buttraped at the YMCA.
>>22256 What about the Batman who Rapes?
Didn't you already make this thread?
The Punisher's hardly edgy compared to many of the characters created since his first appearance. A former soldier with a dead family fighting a literal war on crime is kinda plain compared to, for example, a former spook/merc turned into a schizo representative of an Egyptian god.
>>22646 Heavy emphasis on the schizophrenia.
>>22646 Moon Knight's a reluctant tortured hero though. Sure he kills his criminals too but Frank is just straight up a mass killer in all black wearing a skull on his chest. Khonshu is even jealous.
>>22648 I remember during the civil war crossover event. The anti registration guys had punisher show up at their hideout. They all figure Franks looking to join. He just pulls out a beretta and smokes two of them. "What?" Is all he says as all these "heroes" stand around in horror and just watch.
>>22649 Huh? The Punisher of all people was pro-government? Pro-registration? Anti-Vigilante? What the fuck?
>>22650 Naw. He didn't care about any of the political shit. He just killed two dudes for dealing drugs in the past or maybe they were anti heroes who used to be italian hitmen. It never explains what they did. Cause the only time he shows up in the big crossover is in someone elses monthly book, and it's just to kill two ostensible "heroes" say "what." Then walk out. All these dudes pledged to justice don't do shit. They can't even process what Frank is. Or what he's just done. He's just a serial killer. What cares he for these silly costumed events? He was only there because there was people to kill there. It always stuck with me. That's who the Punisher is. Just some killer.
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>>22652 Well not exactly how I recall the scene, but yeah. And reading further it looks like Cap does punch him, but then he just leaves. I forgot civil war was basically the death of captain America arc, so of course this just leads to him speechifying at Frank about truth justice and the American way for 3 pages, but then Frank just walks out. And also I guess these guys were "supervillains" so maybe they robbed a bank with deadly king cobras once. Who knows. >you even got the beretta part wrong Man it's been like 15 years. Sue me.
>>22651 >>22652 It's important to remember that the Punisher has a history of being written as a loon whenever he appears in somebody else's comic, since he makes for an easy strawman. This particular instance is from Spectacular Spidey #83 and had to be retconned 3 years later in the first Punisher miniseries
>>22659 Lol. Fucking Frank Castle man.
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>>22661 >fucking Frank Castle Try fucking Frank Castle while he's handcuffed to a bed, with your dead sister(whom you've just killed in front of him)'s fresh corpse in the room and then blowing your brains out after an orgasm. Frank may be a master of firearms but apparently he has some gun in his pants.
>>22679 What the fuck man. Is that even a girl? Is this a crossover with jeph?
>>22680 If I recall correctly it's a combination of mastectomy and lots of domestic abuse by a mobster husband.
>>22681 I mean that's pretty edgy. Does moon knight ever get weird incest reverse raped? With blood and dead bodies. You know what he's definitely a chaos worshipper. That's his problem, khornate berserkers always make Slaanesh girls wet.
>>22682 I mean khornate berserkers are most likely going to be swole as fuck and Slaanesh sloots would most definitely be mirin' that. O'Brian would probably fit into the latter considering how the majority of her first appearance was her being all horny over the punisher. Is Frank meant to be built like a brick shithouse or just some regular in shape guy? Max's artstyle keeps jumping between the two.
>>22684 The MAX series was supposed larger than life legends kinda thing. So the art is inconsistent. Though to be fair I've seen the Punisher depicted both ways going back to the 90s. It depends.
There are times I'd like to get my hands on Goblins.
>>22699 Then head on down to your local synagogue
>>22709 Alternatively find a shortstack.
>>22699 Have you tried vidya? Or if you wanna run a dnd campaign centered around genocide then I'm in.
>>22679 >>22684 Not even with a rented dick.
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>>22803 Here you go.
Because he is a product from a time where criminals could just do whatever they wanted with the approval of the government, just like today.
>>22827 ow the edge
>>22828 Unironically Punisher was born in the time most vigilante movies were made, just to cope with the streets full of criminals and the corrupt cops doing shit about it.
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>>22827 >Because he is a product from a time where criminals could just do whatever they wanted with the approval of the government, just like today. No dumbass, it's because you're functionally illiterate and didn't notice that Conway his "creator" was having Marvel trying to ride the Men's pulp novel boom in the Wake of Mack Bolan The Executioner By Don Pendleton becoming a massive hit in the 70's. The OG one man war against crime. Hit up Libgen, load up what ever reading device you got (or hit a lot sale or a thrift store), and get ready for the greatest vigilante series of your life.
>>22828 Why would you even come to this site? >>22835 You're not refuting his point, though. His explanation explains why vigilante stories, like The Executioner, were popular at the time. Because of course it's not like The Executioner and The Punisher are the only examples. They're not even the most famous, since that would probably go to Death Wish.
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>>22842 >Why would you even come to this site? I read as an anti-punisher for whatever reason, my bad.
>>22844 Fuck no, I love The Punisher. Is a small catharsis seeing in fiction what should happen in real life. It sadder seeing they want to take the guns from the Punisher just to turn him into a faggot ninja, because not even in fiction we can see justice.
>>22835 Sounds interesting, cheers for the rec.
>>22880 I think maybe you misinterpret the other anon. He is saying he too likes the Punisher and apologizes if he came across as disliking the Punisher.
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>>22884 As an anon I deliver. >>22842 >You're not refuting his point, though. His explanation explains why vigilante stories, like The Executioner, were popular at the time. Simple the Executioner was the sorta hero that most men were craving for during the economic implosion of the 70's going along with the death of the hippie era and several inner city implosions from Detroit to LA. Mack Bolan, the new pulp hero of that era that would revive the men's adventure pulps super hard, tapped into the frustration of old line Americans missing the gunslingers of old with a flat rule of justice. And at a time when America was tricked into Vietnam, and suffering through the Carter era, Mack Bolan was about a man who unlike the Punisher wasn't a New Yorker or say Charles Bronson's Hero of Death Wish, but a kick ass sniper who served in Vietnam. His family is not destroyed by a single rando shoot out, but instead a slow and lengthy process of corruption caused by a mafia owed bank that sets itself up in town and drags his family to the brink of despair between loan sharking and prostitution. An origin that I'd argue would be timeless to any era with vet on a mission story. He's not as obsessed as The Punisher is, but his more worldly and stoic in the classic protestant gunslinger position (often quoting Don Quixote alot in the books), and eventually ends up getting better support from frustrated agents in the FBI to CIA, that due to said same corruption it prevents their more American loyalist agents from stopping crime.
>>22909 Are all pulps like this? I read war against the mafia and Death Squad and I really liked them. >Bolan's dedication to his mission >actually entertaining recon and firefights, the whole start of War against the Mafia when Bolan turns the discussion from him "witnessing" the shooter to wanting a job under the mob, that was a very clever and simultaneously tense moment, stuff like the start of Death Squad where holy shit the events of the previous books actually had a tangible and believable fallout and Bolan just didn't go lmao I win with the mafia taking it like any of the chicks Bolan nails in the books >loads of fan service through description of sexy ladies I think the author may have had a fetish for kissing hips, legs and bellys though, which I kind of get getting off on the macho man Bolan Any more recommendations for pulps that probably got used for inspirations for comic book heroes? I'm definitely going to read the Shadow because it would be interesting seeing a pulp batman, but what else?
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>>23001 >Are all pulps like this? The best men's pulps are always like this.
>>23030 Neat. Guess I'm reading Doc Savage next. Thanks again anon. Man of Bronze? Is that where Man of Steel came from?
>>23035 Yes the man of Steel came from Sigel and Shuster basically cramming in all of the pulp stuff they loved at the time from John Carter of Mars to Doc Savage, hence the Man of Steel tagline.
>>23030 Does Fu Manchu count as Pulp?
>>23035 It's good pulp stuff, but to be perfectly honest the Tarzan pulps are better.
>>23080 My problem with savage so far is the writing style is a bit too flowery for Doc. I get he's been trained from birth to be as perfect as a man can get, you don't need to have every sentence be "DOC, MOVING AS FAST AND SWIFT AS A KITTEN DESPITE BEING MUSCULAR AND PERFECT" "DOC, MOVING HIS PERFECT GOLDEN EYES THAT SHOWED SUPREME INTELLIGENCE" "DOC, ASKING THE WORLD CLASS CHEMIST WHO WAS ONLY SURPASSED IN HIS FIELD BY ONE MAN, DOC SAVAGE" it feels a lot like fanfiction hyping up a mary sue. I like the premise of the book just not so much the writing itself.
>>22253 I think the real question is why are all his fanboys so edgy?
>>23088 Yeah, he gets on my nerves sometimes with his whole best of everything schtick. And the writers really don't help. If I recall that gets toned down a little as it goes on and a few years pass since creating the character. Again Tarzan is just more fun.
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>>23076 >Does Fu Manchu count as Pulp? Yes it does, along with a large chunk of Rohmer's written catalog. There's also the works of CL Moore (Jirel Of Joiry, Northwest Smith), and A Merritt's work, especially Ship of Ishtar (Where a massive chunk inspired both Lovecraft, and most of it's ideas re appropriated with the creation of Dr. Fate). There's Lord Dunsany's endless short story work that did massive fantasy world building prior to Tolkein. Harold Lamb's historical short adventure stories with Khilt The Cossack. To put it politely when you dip into the short fiction prior to say 1985 the latest or 1980, you're going to find some madly readable works of short yet dense fiction that will just kinda blow your mind. And see how hacks like Jerry Conway would lift for their comic work (and would hope you didn't notice the homework stolen). >>23001 >I'm definitely going to read the Shadow because it would be interesting seeing a pulp batman I would place that the other way around Batman was very much a weaker grafting of Shadow elements from the pulps via Bill Fingerman's work to make Batman less of weak sauce cape character. And after you've read The Shadow you're going to find that most of the Batman stuff, with the exception of the golden era and the Neal Adams stuff to be the only runs that come close to the Shadow's greatness in it's heyday.
>>23150 What's your opinion (if you've read it) on Barry Sadler's Casca series?
>>23150 But Golden Age Batman is the one that's closest to just being The Shadow. At least later eras had time to differentiate themselves a bit from the source material, and thus not draw as poor comparisons.
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>>23156 No. PROTOTYPE golden age Batman was a ripoff of The Shadow. It wasn't until he got finalized into his own series character that he became the defined Batman people know.
>>23164 Weren't the stories that ripped off the shadow originally not meant to be published but Bob Kane was a faggot who published it without the original writers knowledge?
>>23167 First I've heard of that. Both Bill Finger & Bob Kane eventually agreed it'd be a better idea to make Batman a proper hero like Superman though.
>>23168 Well, I heard some one say it before. I went digging myself and found a leddit post that insisted the story wasn't supposed to be published but the faggot did't site his sources. I was hoping maybe you knew.
>>23175 Probably just rumor then.
>>23178 Well Razor fist has a vid on it explaining it : https://odysee.com/@RazorFist:1/raz-r-vs-comics-enter-the-shadow:a Also you don't even need to go reddit to show it : http://web.archive.org/web/20200119003351/http://www.dialbforblog.com:80/archives/390/ >>23178 >Probably just rumor then. Nigga you're a Batman fan in denial. Just accept that the American comics industry is notorious sometimes for high levels of massive jobbing than the golden years of WWF on television. Funny thing, If they really wanted to be Batman as pulpy fun again they really should demand that any new writer showing up to do his stories should have a handle on classic pulp detective and hero stories before even walking into the bullpen.
>>23202 Motherfucker I never denied Batman was a ripoff. Look back to what claim is being disputed before you comment defending your favorite e-celeb.
>>23080 Tarzan I'm finding so far is immensely entertaining. Thanks a ton for the recommendation.
>>23202 Reported for shilling.
>>23616 I really do enjoy the series. Np.
>>23202 >Razorfag No thanks, I'd rather not contract GRIDS.
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Why they pull the actual "super" stuff in the last run?
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>>37263 I hated that Bullseye, they could have given him the accuracy without the ability of suddenly making everything into a bullet if they wanted to be more realistic, without it he's just some nut
>>37888 >he's just some nut That's a big part of the villains in this universe
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>>37986 Yeah, but Bullseye has nothing interesting going on with him or anything to do with his main comics counterpart, something that they got right with Kingpin. Had he been a new character he might have been an interesting addition to the Punisher mythos (like the Mennonite or Barracuda) but instead he is just Bullseye lite with a hard-on for Frank (and we already have Jigsaw for that)
McNut
>>38032 Why is a nigger wearing a Green Lantern outfit?
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>>38032 >sue dibny raped >pink kryptonite >black mantas autism being cured >and many more cases Why 00s comics were so "insensitive"? Even in 80s-90s edge all the evil acts were mean to send a warning or denounce something
>>38054 Edgy rebellious era.
>>38052 Because Guy Gardner got brain damage and was put in a coma for like 20 years, so they needed a new backup Green Lantern for Hal, and got John instead. Later Guy got better and got promoted, but John was already in the job and firing him would have been a real hassle.
>>38052 >>38058 Is a shame we did not get Hal Jordan for the Justice League cartoon like it was originally planned
>>38059 They needed a token negro, Mars abomination wasn't diverse enough!
>>38060 Actually it was a last minute decision because the comics were focusing on other GLs other than Hal, same reason why Kyle was favored in the Superman cartoon over Hal.
>>38061 But it should have been Kyle regardless. He was the main Green Lantern in the comics still, and he was already established in the DCAU from that Superman episode. So why do you think they made it John over Kyle? We all know why.
>>38062 Because Kyle was still a kid in training. At the time he was a better fit for the Teen Titans than the Justice League.
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>>38060 >>38061 Both of you are right. they wanted Hal Jordan but WB told them: NO, They also needed a token negro and originally that token negro was going to be Black Vulcan but since he is not a very well know character they choose John, making john the "Two Birds, One Stone" choice. >>38062 >>38063 In the cartoon the explanation of why Kyle was not available was because he was training with Katma Tui in Oa
>>38063 Kyle was on the Justice League in the comics for years by that point. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman in the DCAU is fresh out of Themyscira. >>38067 >In the cartoon the explanation of why Kyle was not available was because he was training with Katma Tui in Oa Yeah but that's not what was being asked about. It's nice they threw in a reference eventually, but it's not like that was some sort of established lore that made it so they couldn't put him on the team for continuity reasons.
>>38059 Blame 'The Zeta Project' and the anime boom. >>38069 Sometimes canonical lore is respected, and sometimes it's not. Nowadays, they just toss it out the window. Because, on one hand, you got the writers looking to make a name by making [insert popular character] gay, black, and/or transpecial. On the other, a whole production team that has never read the source material and are making a whatever about said source material.
>>38075 >Blame 'The Zeta Project' and the anime boom. How would either of those things be remotely related to not getting Hal Jordan as the Green Lantern in the Justice League cartoon? It's not like anime is known for replacing classic characters with black guys.
>>38095 >>>38076 >How would either of those things be remotely related to not getting Hal Jordan as the Green Lantern in the Justice League cartoon? Well, it's what people usually blame. But we all should know that forced diversity was the real reason. SJW Code Authority states there can only be so many X(white), Y(male), and Z(straight) characters on the mainline to keep the spotlight on the token characters. It's always been a thing. Though, nowadays, it's... out of hand.
>>38096 I've never heard the blame put on The Zeta Project or anime before. I can't imagine what the possible reasoning would be for someone saying it, and I want to know. I want the guy who said it to explain to me his reasoning.
>>38104 Plebbit killed off all of the good online forums. But I understood where most were coming from. Would you have rather had a Green Lantern cartoon instead of The Zeta Project? Or how about a Punisher and/or Deadpool show instead Pokemon: Johto, Master Quest, and Advanced?
>>38113 But we aren't talking about a solo Green Lantern cartoon. We're talking about why Kyle, already established in the DCAU, was replaced with John, who never appeared before, in the Justice League cartoon. I can't imagine what The Zeta Project or anime had to do with that.
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>>38247 I can only recall what sheep have stated to me. Do I agree with it, no. You're conversing with someone that had physical copies of the good capeshit, and I'd rather them have had both Kyle and The Atom in the cartoon.
>>22254 his family is dad
>>38276 Yeah but he wasn't an adaptation of a more interesting character
>>22253 Because Frank Castle (introduced 1974) is Mack Bolan (first novel 1969) stolen by Gerry Conway at Marvel from Don Pendleton and put in a world of bulletproof assholes wearing capes. You'd be edgy too. No, seriously. Late 60s, early 70s cheap pulp paper novels about an ex-military gunslinger vigilante waging an endless one-man war on crime. The novels were briefly popular, though never with "respectable" people, and briefly a meme back when Nixon was President. Compare the violent crime rates then to the violent crime rates now, and keep in mind that, fifty years ago, higher violent crime rates in a police precinct meant they got more money. Since around 1990 it has meant they got less instead. Nonetheless the Bronx or the Tenderloin or the south side of Chicago in 1974 looks positively quaint compared to today. Mack Bolan struck a chord with people who had followed the Manson Family trial and seen Charles Manson's death penalty cancelled. Mack Bolan, when you cut through the layers of gun bunny stuff and he-man back alley karate fighting, a guy whose existence, methods, and motivation all say: "This experiment we've been doing for the past couple hundred years, the Enlightenment, has failed. All it's gotten us is Charles Manson, who is himself a symptom of a much deeper rot. No, it's time to abandon all of this and go back to 'Might Makes Right' as the wellspring of authentic political authority." So of course Gerry Conway and Stan Lee had to grab Mack Bolan, change his name slightly--note that even the rhythm of its pronuncation, the number of syllables, is the exact same--and drop him into a world of dumbfuck asshole capes who didn't comprehend cause and effect or think more than ten seconds into the future. The Green Goblin would take hostages in a bank and kill half of them, and ol' Spidey would web-sling his way in there and grab him by the scruff of the neck and hand him over to the cops, and he'd be right back out on the street for the next issue. Obviously he had a good lawyer, or a sympathetic judge, or maybe the DA was just phoning it in from the golf course. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Next issue Spidey is fighting the Rhino but the issue after that, Green Goblin is at it again, riding his flying rocket surfboard or whatever the fuck it was, cackling as he drops grenades into crowded Manhattan streets until Spidey shows up to give him to the cops again, and once again he's back on the street before the ink is dry on his paperwork. The Punisher was introduced in Spider-Man comics and his whole thing was to say "Nah, fuck all that," and give the bad guy a .45 caliber lobotomy. Early appearances looked like the writers were trying, clumsily, to show that superheroes are presented with moral dilemmas every day, and to be a bad example of what it'd be like if the superheroes just started killing people, complete with I'm-a-bad-guy black uniform and skull iconography. But, bad writing or no, the character, like Mack Bolan, struck a chord with some comic book readers, and became popular enough to get his own title. It makes me think of how a somewhat popular American TV sitcom at the time, "All in the Family," had Carroll O'Connor playing the inarticulate Neanderthal Archie Bunker, a grotesque caricature of mid-20th-Century urban working-class white men. The producer, Norman Lear, and O'Connor himself were Redder than a baboon's ass, as were all the directors, screenwriters, and actors. Despite this, Rob Reiner, as the smirking insufferable hippie son-in-law, was so fucking sanctimonious as he mouthed all the 1970s Leftist platitudes that audiences overwhelmingly sided with Archie, to the horror of both Lear and O'Connor. Producers and actors living in the Manhattan/Hollywood bubble were alarmed and perplexed that people in Flyover Country were sick of the bullshit and not cheerfully going along with the program. People in Flyover Country are still sick of the bullshit. And that is why Frank Castle is so edgy.
>>38588 >The Green Goblin would take hostages in a bank and kill half of them, and ol' Spidey would web-sling his way in there and grab him by the scruff of the neck and hand him over to the cops, and he'd be right back out on the street for the next issue. Ackshually, since we are on /co/, I feel obligated to point out that the Green Goblin was never arrested. He just plain got away every time he fought Spidey, then he while fighting Spidey. The third Green Goblin, Harry Osborn's psychiatrist, also got killed. I'm pretty sure he was only ever in one arc. Now where you could make an argument is that eventually Peter did find out who the first and second Green Goblins were, and though they kept getting away, he didn't squeal on them, because the Green Goblin was a split personality, and he kept thinking they were "cured," but they kept relapsing. Well he paid for the first one when Norman killed his girlfriend. He kept letting Harry away with it too, until Harry's evil alt personality eventually turned good and he sacrificed himself. Also, I doubt even Stan Lee would give himself any credit for The Punisher. He was long gone from writing Spidey by the time Punisher showed up. Actually, it seems relevant to point out that The Punisher only appeared after The Green Goblin died, and his first story arc stemmed from the repurcussions of that death. He first appeared in the same issue as The Jackal. The Jackal hired him to kill Spider-Man. Later we learn he did this because he blames Spider-Man for the death of Gwen Stacy. After Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn died, everyone including the cops blamed Spider-Man. This is why The Punisher felt justified in trying to kill Spider-Man. It's also noteworthy that The Punisher didn't get his own solo series for over a decade after his first appearance, and that solo series is really where the character we think of comes from. Before that, he was an occasional Spider-Man and Daredevil antagonist and/or supporting character. He was a hired assassin in his first appearance, though he showed a code of honor and switched sides when he realized his client was actually bad and his target was actually good. You point to the All in the Family comparison, but I don't think it went quite that far under Gerry Conway, though he is a ridiculous SJW now. But Frank's last appearance before his solo series, in Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man #81-83, from 1983, written by Bill Mantlo, does have Frank freaking out and killing people for things like littering. (Specifically in issue #82.) That is the one extreme case of what you're talking about. All the other appearances of Punisher up to that point had him as ultimately a hero, even if he was mislead into thinking Spidey was a bad guy, and even if Spidey didn't agree with his methods. But in Spectacular #82, Punisher is shown as just being a more cartoonish caricature than the Jackal who hired him in the first place. However, this ridiculously bad writing did not go unnoticed. The first Punisher miniseries (1986), written by Stephen Grant, was the character's next appearance. The plot is that it turns out Frank was only acting like that in his previous appearance because he was drugged by Jigsaw. The story is then about him fighting Jigsaw. So the point is, he was not intended as the ridiculous political caricature you say, and the one time it happened in his early appearances, they then gave him his own solo series that was all about explaining why that one bad story was bullshit. As for All in the Family, the funny thing about that show is as it went on, the series itself had to acknowledge that Archie was right all along. When Rob Reiner quit, they had to write him out of the show. Meathead leaves Gloria and their son to run off and join a hippie commune. Archie was right about him and by extension all hippies. In the last season or two, once every other cast member had left and they renamed the show to "Archie Bunker's Place," he and Edith adopt Edith's niece (I think), Danielle, but Edith dies (when her actress quit), and then there's basically an MRA episode where the courts try to take her from him because since he's a man they assume he's a molester, and the episode is about how unjust that is. By the end, All in the Family was forced to get redpilled. Also, they 1970 George Jefferson, where the bit is that he was exactly like Archie only he hated white people. Now, I'm not gonna pretend they were ever as hard on George as they were on Archie, but it's a premise they wouldn't use today. Even Norman Lear, the biggest pinko commie in Hollywood for decades, was absolutely based and redpilled compared to modern television. But yes, The Punisher is a ripoff of The Executioner. That's still true. As was the style at the time. Death Wish came out right around then as well (though isn't quite as close as Punisher was, since Kersey isn't supposed to be some highly trained badass, but rather an everyman). People of the era were fucking sick of hippie bullshit, and this all reflects that.
>>38032 >that third page It never ceases to amaze me, the kind of absolute cancerous radioactive sewage comic writers get paid to spew.


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