I agree with what you're saying OP and it's fucking depressing.

>I see a lot of posts here saying stuff like "we need better memes," "better content," etc.
Honestly, don't fuck with the memers, OP. They are doing something, you ain't doing jack shit at all. You can't really criticize someone for trying something even if you think it's useless, unless you're also doing something besides sitting on your ass and playing the critic. We have enough clever critics here, we need more doers.

>If your answer to "Why are we losing market share so rapidly and dramatically?" is "We need better branding!" then you are not looking deep enough.
Where are we not looking deep enough? What are you proposing in return? Are you that guy who keeps complaining that we're losing because the leftists took over the universities and the press and the big companies? Do you even have an idea why besides "muh leftist sorcery"? Literally update your brain to current year + 5, there is a new strain of Marxism out there called post-modernism and you can't BTFO it with your typical facts and logic. We have been fighting and losing a meme war (aka "the culture war") since the 70s, if you aren't clued in on memes and how they're spread, do some damn research. It's an understatement to say "we need better branding!", we don't even have any branding in the first place. We're bringing knives to a gunfight. You can't fight post-modernism with modern methods and you can't beat meta-ironic memes with "cheeky snides" and ironic memes. It's like rock paper scissors but we keep playing scissors against an enemy that constantly uses rocks.

>2 - If so, WHY are libertarians' responses so unsatisfactory to most people?
Our problem is mainly a moral problem, not an ideological/intellectual one, and a successful libertarian movement would require a moral foundation before all. You can work with leftists who truly love the others, because they are just wrong ideologically and you can redpill them over time if they truly have good intentions, but you can't work with resentful assholes who have all of the ideology right and have read all the right books, but who hate other libertarians as well as the people they try to "convert" into libertarianism. These zombies are a dead weight to be cut off from any healthy libertarian community and must be replaced with new blood. Ironically, this would include you, OP. Take your anti-depressants. Don't blackpill the younger members of this board into the authoritarian ideologies you complain about.

>>948
Are you REALLY sure it's just "better memes/better branding?" If this is the case, you would then have to agree than 2008 was a renaissance of libertarians because they had better/more memes, and now there are less libertarians because they do not have better memes. This reminds me of Tom Woods argument of "Why was there suddenly so much more greed right before the great recession?" as a rhetorical question against the argument of irrational exuberance. By analogy, your explanation sounds very similar to the 'irrational exuberance' explanation of market cycles. Given that, you can understand why I might find that disingenuous, right?

I'm also still not satisfied with your response, as I feel I could repeat my previous canard of comparing libertarianism's fall to marketers wanting a larger female demographic with "Let's make it pink!" I don't think you can have this catastrophic a fall just because of bad marketing.

In response to your questions about what am I suggesting to do--I don't know. I didn't think I was suggesting anything. My "1" question in the OP should be evidence of that. You seem to think I'm suggesting a lot! I'm just trying to come up with some sort of plausible narrative for libertarianism's fall in the past decade.

Also, your abrasive side-commentary made it really difficult for me to focus on the actual points your post raised. I don't even really understand where the last two sentences came from other than to just be spiteful for spiteful's sake. It's kind of ironic, because I think your last paragraph was meant to say, "Don't be an asshole" while in the same breath telling me to "take my anti-depressants" and to fuck off. Don't you think that's a little contradictory? This is reminding me of a story where some libertarian conference was talking about why there aren't more females in the libertarian movement, and eventually the point of "It's because the female brain is incompatible with libertarianism" came up, and a woman in the crowd replied, "Maybe we aren't here because you say shit like that."

>>947
>because the libertarian solutions aren't out there on social media.
This reminds me of a different theory I had. One thing different about 2018 v. 2008 is that in 1998-2008 social media and phone-posting was nascent or nonexistent, and libertarianism thrived with that level of tech. At least, I think it's a relevant fact that Jeffrey Tucker became such a different person after creating his own social media platform.

Libertarians haven't lost, they've gotten pragmatic. Most have chosen to throw their weight behind the GOP and changing it to be more amenable to their immediate goals rather than advocate for orthodox libertarianism and nothing less.

>>951
>Are you REALLY sure it's just "better memes/better branding?"
Yes, I REALLY am super-duper sure about everything I say, unless I state otherwise, however... that's not what I said. It's not "just" better memes/branding. It's never "just" anything in life, "just" is a really subtle word, but when people like you insert it in your "so you're saying that..." sentences, it changes the whole meaning of what I'm supposed to be arguing about. Don't try to manipulate me with that shit, I'm not the nigsocs you're used to arguing with.

>If this is the case
Regardless if it's the case...

>you would then have to agree than 2008 was a renaissance of libertarians because they had better/more memes
I don't have to agree with jack shit, I don't know everything, and I don't know why 2008 was the most based and redpilled year in the history of mankind. But if you asked me if memes played a significant part in it, I would say absolutely fucking yes.

>I'm also still not satisfied with your response
I can't fit a whole science into a short, convenient response, you either research this shit and you're already on the same page, or you're not. We're not "just" talking about bald friends and pepe frogs here, we're talking about the very nature of ideas. Back in 2008, the internet was still in pre-modern times, it wasn't us having good memes, or more specifically - good methods of spreading ideas, it was everyone else having it equally shitty as us, we were all confined to being literal or ironic until more advanced forms of memery were discovered. 2008 memes were fucking primitive, you'd be ashamed to post them now, it was equivalent to cave paintings, even just recently I posted a few of those shitty memes in the content thread and an anon rightfully shamed me for it, those memes are considered lame and "facebook-tier" today in comparison to more advanced forms of irony, but they served their purpose on the market of ideas back then when we fought the enemy on more/less equal grounds.

By now, the meme war has changed, our enemies exist on an entirely different plane of existence, literally everyone on the internet besides normalfags posts on no less than 3 layers of irony while we're still posting on 0 or 1, being totally literal or ironic at best. We should consider ourselves blessed, the internet has killed post-modernism, especially in places where the free market of ideas are strongest (imageboards), but we're not using this miracle to our advantage - the neetsocs and leftists are. I don't know if we're ashamed to be unserious or something, God forbid we embarrass ourselves in front of strangers on the internet, but unless we master the art and science of post-irony, we're NOT going to fucking achieve ANYTHING, neither on the internet with dank maymays, nor in irl arguments and discussions. Seriousness does have it's place, that's what post-irony is about, it's about bringing seriousness back into world where truth doesn't matter anymore, but if we're always serious by default, we're going to continue being cringed at for lecturing people with boring dad talk, boring boomer memes, and a boring-sounding ideology that doesn't seem relevant to people with today's problems.

>>951
>I could repeat my previous canard of comparing libertarianism's fall to marketers wanting a larger female demographic with "Let's make it pink!"
It's a shit comparison. Doesn't translate at all to what I'm talking about.

>I don't think you can have this catastrophic a fall just because of bad marketing.
That's like saying "I don't think so many fish could've died when the lake dried up". I honestly wonder what you think libertarianism is. It's not some physical object. It's nothing more than a collection of ideas people hold in their brains, which they try to transfer to other brains via memetics. If marketing isn't directly involved here, I don't fucking know what is.

>it really difficult for me to focus on the actual points your post raised
You don't have to focus on those points, I don't post them for you.

>"Don't be an asshole" while in the same breath telling me to "take my anti-depressants" and to fuck off. Don't you think that's a little contradictory?
No, take your anti-depressants and stop being a depressed asshole, or fuck off to somewhere else. I won't provide you company in your misery and I don't tolerate depressed assholes. Blackpilled losers, those who are unhappy and unlucky, are to be avoided and treated like an infection, you know automatically that they are full of shit, because people who know the truth are not depressed about anything, the real truth always brings hope with it no matter how fucked up things are because you at least know where to go even if you aren't there yet. That's why a true knower is like Neo flying around in the matrix and kicking ass, not like Cypher who wants to get bluepilled again. Being blackpilled is not seeing reality for what it is, optimism and pessimism have nothing to do with reality, they are both a decision you make on how you interpret the information you receive and nothing more.

>"It's because the female brain is incompatible with libertarianism" came up, and a woman in the crowd replied, "Maybe we aren't here because you say shit like that."
lmao

>>964
>>965
- You claim someone else is shoving words in your mouth when you attempt to do the same by calling them 'blackpilled,' which as far as I see has not been properly justified. I could see that if the OP was, "It died and it's never coming back." But just to state the fact that it declined is not necessarily 'blackpilled.' You wouldn't call someone from Venezuela pointing out that incomes have declined and is asking what happened to be 'blackpilled.'
- You did not point to a single source, you only flipped the burden of proof to find your sources onto someone else (by far, this has to be the most aggravating thing; for example, you could have at least provided a single citation when you said "I can't fit a whole science into a short, convenient response, you either research this shit and you're already on the same page, or you're not." to back up your point even in the slightest).
- When you say 'If it's not marketing, I don't know what else it could be,' that's the definition of the logical fallacy of an argument from ignorance.
- When I point out reasons why I might question your thesis, you simply say they're shit comparisons without providing any possible counterpoint or additional argument as to why that might be the case.
- You could leave the other ad hominems out of this. I don't think I've called you a nigsoc, a plebbitor, etc.. Please calm down and rationally explain your position.

>>965
>That's why a true knower is like Neo flying around in the matrix and kicking ass, not like Cypher who wants to get bluepilled again
Is this a secret LOL thread?

>>976
>You claim someone else is shoving words in your mouth when you attempt to do the same by calling them 'blackpilled,'
The subject of your OP is literally "libertarianism lost", the rest is generally moaning and groaning about shitty situations which may or may not be true, like for example, how everyone and their mom left for /monarchy/ when it's just two guys: me shitposting with other peasants, and our BO conquering his first territories for the ancap Imperium of Man.

You have a bunch of points that you assume everyone must agree with by default, and some of them are true to be fair, but the general message is "it's all fucked, boyos, and that's just how it is, we all know, right?", that your pessimism doesn't even require an explanation or any kind of proofs. tbh that's ok by itself, I don't really give a fuck about proofs and shit, and I can't be arsed to provide any myself, but then you also go on to criticize those who are actually more optimistic about our situation and who actually think they have a solution to our problems and are working towards it however slowly, you don't offer any alternatives as to what we should be doing instead, and you ask us to provide proofs and explanations as to why our strategy is effective, instead of just dropping everything, agreeing that shit's fucked, and wallowing in a shared pessimism, because why not? Why not just moan and groan together while doing nothing? Don't even pretend this wasn't supposed to be a blackpill thread with some plausible deniability added towards the end.

>you could have at least provided a single citation when you said "I can't fit a whole science into a short, convenient response, you either research this shit and you're already on the same page, or you're not." to back up your point even in the slightest).
This isn't wikipedia bruh, I am not trying to prove anything, you don't have to believe any of the shit I say, I don't care. If you're so curious, you have google at your fingertips. Not a single second is added to my life fetching sources for people on the internet. Asking for proofs for others' optimism, while providing none for your own pessimism and assuming you're already correct because "it's common knowledge" or some shit, this kind of cynicism is absolutely cancerous.

>When you say 'If it's not marketing, I don't know what else it could be,' that's the definition of the logical fallacy of an argument from ignorance.
Wrong. Let's not subtly change any words again, and let's reread it within the context of the other sentences: I honestly wonder what you think libertarianism is. It's not some physical object. It's nothing more than a collection of ideas people hold in their brains, which they try to transfer to other brains via memetics. If marketing isn't directly involved here, I don't fucking know what is.

>When I point out reasons why I might question your thesis, you simply say they're shit comparisons without providing any possible counterpoint or additional argument as to why that might be the case.
Yes.

>You could leave the other ad hominems out of this. I don't think I've called you a nigsoc, a plebbitor, etc.. Please calm down and rationally explain your position.
Nigger, plebbit, etc...

>>977
This is now a YLYL thread.

>>986
>I don't really give a fuck about proofs and shit, and I can't be arsed to provide any myself
QFT

>>986
>and our BO conquering his first territories for the ancap Imperium of Man.
That's what you think, but now /liberty/ is our turf.

>>1019
Actually, /monarchy/ is now my turf. The board has been embordered and claimed.

>>1023
Exactly

>>1026
Not quite exactly, there's a subtle distinction between "/liberty/ is now our [/monarchy/'s] turf" and "/monarchy/ is now /liberty/'s turf."

>>1029
And thereby a colonial foothold.
as much as you own /monarchy/, /monarchy/ will will own /liberty/!
The ultimate side effect of this claim is that.

>>1030
>Cute anime grl holding "The State in the Third Millenium."
I can die now.

>>1030
If this book any good?

Is Lichtenstein a free market or close to it?

They aren't on the index of economic freedom.

>>1071
The book is decent, combination history and political theory as a sort of story told by the author. Liechtenstein has a very unrestricted market, and is unique in being one of the few states to have the right of secession written into its constitution. It's not on the economic freedom index because it's too small to have enough meaningful data for the metrics which the index measures.

>>1073
>to have the right of secession written into its constitution
This can not be stated highly enough. I liken it to an anarchosecessionist State (or if you're from /monarchy/, a monarchosecessionist State).

Also, it has the highest (doublecheck me on this) income per capita of any nation on Earth.

>>1076
Seriously?
So do people work less hours in a week or retire earlier? Because that's what is supposed to happen if average income is higher

>>1078
That's assuming every job is insufferable.

You let your entire club house get infiltrated by 'dude weed' and disaffected, but still mentally colonized by Marxists, liberals into your mix and lost all your teeth. If you pushed more Hoppe you would find more people, who currently gravitate to the solutions the far right promises, giving you sympathy.

>>1105
>You
>implying
The serious thinkers associated with libertarianism broke ranks with the Libertarian Party (the ones pushing this angle) a long time ago, for precisely that reason.

>If you pushed more Hoppe
That's exactly what the Mises Institute and the PFS are doing. If (you) did more than 5 minutes research before hitting 'reply' you might have made a quality post.

>>1106
What I described it what happened to your old haunt, which still has normalfag name recognition, so you are still dealing with the fallout. Then with your suburb reading comprehension you fucking sperg out thinking I'm talking about the userbase here.

>>1105
>you

Digits for physical removal being real this new decade

>>1108
>your old haunt
>your
It's not >our old haunt. Paleolibertarians left the LP years ago, long before any of the dudeweed nonsense started showing up.

>>1111
Blessed quads

>>1111
Amen.

>>964
>>965
These city slickin' memeguzzlers are your general militants, /liberty/?
A humble lurker here asks nicely

>>1128
I guess so. It's kind of sad.

>>1128
>>1129
Keep samefagging, OP. With your unique IPs we'll overtake /fascist/.

>>1136
I guess you can say that it's possible that >>1128 is me because I'm a torposter, but for your sake, I'll let you know that it's not.

Also, I should say, I'm feeling pretty solid with the debate we had, if you had any final thoughts to say.

Out of curiosity, you wouldn't happen to be an old poster in another forum who went by the username Socialist Jerry, would you?

>>1139
I said everything I wanted to say to you.

>Out of curiosity, you wouldn't happen to be an old poster in another forum who went by the username Socialist Jerry, would you?
I don't use reddit.

The problem is entirely because of imageboard culture. Julay sucks. I don't like coming here because it's full of porn, /cow/shit, avatarposters and every other neet trapping.

>>1149
>full of porn
How? Julay hides porn by default, so despite a SFW overboard existing, they don't even show up on the normal overboard. /hgg/ is the outlier, but it looks like it's mostly a board for their projects and translations so the board itself is more about discussing than posting porn. I don't know how the porn can be a problem since you're not going to see any of it unless you go out of your way to see it.

>>1150
>Site logo
>Going out of your way
The existence of not only standard porn but disgusting diaper and pedo fetish communities (and sizeable ones) on this site make it inappropriate. /liberty/ is not big to be considered distinct from the site as a whole to excuse it, as I would argue for blue 4chan boards like /mu/ or /his/.

It's alienating so productive posters won't visit, and it's toxic that these people might form any significant proportion of our userbase. Everything about this is a negative in my opinion.

If anyone is serious about the online liberty movement enough to put some time and a little money into it, I think an imageboard would really be beneficial. It's the perfect setup for OC that influences the culture at large, 4pol has proven that.
The BO of 16chan wrote a guide on how to do it here https://im663.com/post/lynxchan-setup-guide/

>>1149
>>1151
>toxic
That's just the way we like it, if it wasn't it would attract pearl-clutching faggots such as yourself.

>>1152
Thanks for exemplifying what I'm talking about

>>1151
>claims julay hosts pedos
>posys guide written by faggot shill from alt-chan leaks
>same d&c is on multiple boards
Hmmm

>>1156
I don't know anything about gayops and I don't care. It's a guide for someone to make a site, and it would be a good thing. Feel free to ignore.

>>1164
Sure, it's merely a coincidence that the same d&c has been posted over multiple boards here for months. It's just a coincidence that a guide from a faggot that works for the MSM and was exposed in the alt-chan leaks trying to drive anons into a federation of imageboards to profit through ads and dataminig would be posted it even mentons analytics. The admin of julay wrote a better guide months ago and has always encouraged anons make their own boards and join the webring.

>>1166
What is possibly d&c about advocating someone make a dedicated site
Use the other guide if you want

You know, thinking this over, I don't think libertarianism lost. I think the goalposts of what libertarianism even IS changed as everything became labeled 'fascist' by the left, so that by comparison, libertarianism 'lost' because what's considered libertarianism nowadays is only the most extreme form of libertarianism available. Pic attached, took me 1000 hours in mspaint. All text is super hard.

Libertarians are absolutely terrible at propaganda and sourcing their claims.

have you considered the possibility that Libertarianism might be retarded?

>>1201
Have you considered that your life would be better when you aren't choking down dick?

>>1199
>Far left and far right people
both are terrible at meming

>>1201
Have you considered that the (((pipeline))) was a ruse from (((them))) to prevent the resurgence of Libertarianism and the abolition of their beloved shekel machine?

>>1199
Are you kidding? the far left can't meme worth shit. Why do you think the stereotype of their memes being walls of text exist in the first place? Far right has an edge fact sure, but once you dig deeper you realize how shallow it really is.

>>964
For 2008 I guess the reason why it probably was libertarian was due to Ron Paul running his campaign. He was principled and stuck to his guns and that attracted a lot of people to libertarianism in the long run.

My personal view on why libertarianism has lost ground online is because it focused more on "dude weed lmao" and "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" than explaining the principles of libertarianism. Basically, the LP and some others went for short term rather than focusing on the long term and building up a base of people.

Also, I do think the "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" part damaged libertarianism because it's an inaccurate description of libertarianism. So as a result you get a lot of people joining who don't fully understand libertarianism or just have a poorly thought out version of libertarianism in their heads.

TLDR: The LP and other libertarians focused on short term goals rather than long term goals. Libertarians also gave poor explanations about libertarianism which led to a shoddy foundation of understanding what the ideology is. It's quality over quantity.

>>1225
To add to the short term goals this led some libertarians making compromises rather than sticking to their guns. I noticed this over the years when you compare Reason magazine to Mises.org.

>>1223
This shit is outdated.
The left is currently winning the meme war on Twitter and reddit
Especially the far left

We have nothing to counter them with.

>>1236
Is that so? I don't browser twitter as much as I used to and barely go onto reddit so I didn't notice.

>>1239
I often visit reddit's home due to my fascination with seeing the horror, they got worse with the years in all things, including meme quality. It's scary how leftists are.
I want this to stop.

>>1236
>left is winning the meme war
In what way? Every leftist meme is either preachy as fuck and not funny or suffers from the same issue a lot of leftist memes have of having far too many words. For the most part, the right has kept it's memes simple and brief while the left has not changed their format in years and are still stuck in 2016.

Problem 1: Plenty of "libertarians" aren't libertarian at all. Unlike the cliche that "Libertarians are Republicans who want to smoke pot" the reality is that sizeable contingent are actually liberals who think the welfare state and taxes are in the way of realizing a even more liberal utopia.
This goes especially for the "mainstream" think tank crowd surrounding Reason/Cato et al. Sometimes they throw off their pretend libertarianism very very fast (cf. Niskanen).

Problem 2: Post-trump somehow libertarian/strict constitutionalist rhetoric became the refuge for every shitfaced ratfucker from Conservative Inc, because the same people who spent the Bush years sucking USGOV dick and who were cheerleading both McCain and Romney while dumping on the kooky racist ron Paul suddenly became DEEBLY GONCERND about the possible abuse of power by TINY HANDS CHEETO HITLER and the impact of REGULATION on teh free market (said concern never seems to extend to SMEs but whatever).
This shit gets enabled by the people called out in point 1 btw.

Problem 3: Left-libertarians are overwhelmingly shitfaces who are identical to the irony left/radlib DSA set save for their hair thin veneer of fReE MArKets N0t cAPt4lIsM. It's literally rich kids LARPing the revolution all the way down.
Remember when /pol/ doxed the girlfriend of one of the C4SS guys as a FinDomme who was bankrupting working class guys while daddy (exec at JP Morgan) paid for everything?

>>1249
You're confusing social democrat memes with the far left.

The far left is winning the meme game.

>>1264
>far left is winning the meme game
Explain

>>1272
/liberty/ should bully their catgirl.

>>1274
>wheel is not a swastika
7/10 its ok

>>1250
>girlfriend of C4SS guy was a findomme and scammed people.
I'm not really surprised but I want to learn more about this.

>>1149
>>1151
>make a /liberty/-only site
>but restrict all the things I don't like!
Eat shit, faggot.

>>1272
I'd explain it as although left-wing memes are of lower quality if not outright garbage, they tend to get more exposure due to media gatekeeping, censorship and influencers. "Late-stage capitalism" is such an example you'll see around, as well as the whole Russiagate delusion (not a fan of Trump but it's obvious that it's a diversionary tactic away from actually good conspiracy theories). You could argue that "climate change" is another example and is probably the epitome of a forced meme as people are told it's an existential threat. As memes are based on exposure forcing a meme on a wide enough scale, as long as it isn't too painfully obvious, can work. The effect is a chain reaction of opinion as the ignorant will parrot what seems relevant (example is apolitical British/European Youtubers making jokes about Brexit) and this does have a subliminal psychological effect on people who hear it a number of times.

Also, if the Left cannot create its own memes then it will co-opt successful memes. Hence the now-disparaged "Ok Boomer" meme, although originating from 4Chan, taking off after Soph's video, and originally criticizing mass immigration and neo-conservatism, is now used by leftists to shut down opposition to their views, because apparently boomers didn't make left-wing standpoints mainstream. Ditto to a lesser extent for the "Doomer" meme, as on 4Chan-influenced cultures it is used to imply the impending dystopia multiculturalism and creeping socialism will bring us, but any "acceptable" source will describe it's about climate change and income inequality. I think people in power as well as leftists on the ground have realized that they cannot kill memes through outrage (see Pepe), so they're twisting the meanings to suit their own agenda. Par for the course, really.

Americans are so enslaved now that Americans scream rent would be $20 million per month if there was no rent control.

>>1274 We need more memes like that.