I want to see actual Sonic zones as biomes in a contiguous world with Sonic aesthetics and level design. I want actual level design. Frontiers level design is ike BotW, but it should be more like DK64. That game had hand-crafted puzzles for multiple playable characters, had missions that spanned the whole stage, it had "dungeons", and the stage opened up naturally as you played through it.

The big problem with Frontiers 2 is that Sonic Frontiers sold really well for a Sonic game, especially in japan. It sold better than Shadow Gens in fact. This shows that despite its flaws Frontiers still was an appealing game to normalfags and japs, even moreso than Shadow Gens. It shows that pure Sonic games like Shadow Gens are not popular with normalfags and japs unlike this new open world BOTW ripoff. Because of this, Sonic Team can't just make open world game that's 100% Sonic like Sonic Utopia for example. They still have to follow Sonic Frontiers' design somewhat if they don't want to alienate this new audience.

Shadow Generations already took concepts from Frontiers and refined them. I'd say it's a much better game, despite not even being sold as a full game. Hopefully the next real 3D Sonic game follows the trends from Shadow Generations. By that I mean make it more and more like Sonic Adventure 2, but with open world stuff, since people seem to like that. And obviously make the open world one large world, like Shadow Generations, but much bigger. Obviously they intended that with Frontiers and just fucked up. >>26124 >I want to see actual Sonic zones as biomes in a contiguous world with Sonic aesthetics and level design. Oh yeah this. Frontiers looked super boring. How hard would it be to just set it on Angel Island or whatever, and let us run around those locations? I guess technically you get to run around a tiny section of Angel Island open world in Sonic Adventure. You can have that little section be the same in a new game, as a reference, but then expand upon it tremendously. And don't start about how layouts shouldn't be exactly the same, because that would be boring, and therefore it should be a different location in the story. Hyrule is different every time, but we can still accept that it's always Hyrule. >>26125 >The big problem with Frontiers 2 is that Sonic Frontiers sold really well for a Sonic game, especially in japan. It sold better than Shadow Gens in fact. Shadow Generations wasn't even sold like a full game. It hardly counts. But clearly they were testing some ideas. It's not even like it was that different from Frontiers. To casuals, it's clearly the same formula. The little differences only matter to nerds. But that includes me. They matter to me.

>>26126 >It's not even like it was that different from Frontiers They only share the same character controller and level design ideas. Everything else is all different. Even normalfags and japs can tell which is why Shadow Gens sold worse than Frontiers. >Shadow Generations wasn't even sold like a full game It's as full as a pure boost game is going to get. Its smaller price and Sonic Movie 3 hype should have made it more successful than Frontiers but that wasn't the case. I think that was due to Shadow Gens being too Sonic-like. (I know this sounds retarded but that's probably how normalfags and japs view Shadow Gens)

>>26123 >>What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? Really, the game already has a good base, they really only need to further improve in it, a real physics system for example, i get why the game was like that but we really need to play more with the physics after getting a taste of it with the spindash. >>How should the sequel improve upon the original game? Physics to begin with, also we really could use original themes for stages that arent fucking green hill yet again. >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? Recycled stages, the original levels they had were pretty good, they really just need to stop relying so much on past stuff and make something new. >What could be its vision and design philosophy? Maybe a focus on rhythm? there's a certain sense of zen in the open zones where you can just chain multiple mini challenges together, maybe if they stopped pausing everytime you finish an objective you could chain multiple together, since i do think all the cutscenes break the pace somewhat.

>>26129 > a real physics system for example, i get why the game was like that but we really need to play more with the physics after getting a taste of it with the spindash. Frontiers already supports 360 degree movement and light slope physics. Their problem was with making Sonic's movement work with realistic and rocky terrain. That's the reason why the controls feel so janky and even I don't know how they could fix that.

>>26133 wow

>>26128 >They only share the same character controller and level design ideas. So the main core of the game. This is like saying Sonic 2 isn't like Sonic 1. Like yeah, as a massive autist, I can tell the difference, but it's obviously an incremental change on the same formula. >Even normalfags and japs can tell which is why Shadow Gens sold worse than Frontiers. Shadow Generations was sold like a bit of side content to a near-identical remake of Sonic Generations. It wasn't a "real" game as far as normalfags and casuals are concerned. It's the equivalent of Zelda Four Swords. >It's as full as a pure boost game is going to get. I agree it is, but I said it wasn't sold as such. It was sold as a bit of additional content on a rerelease of a game from 13 years earlier.

>>26158 >So the main core of the game I disagree. Frontiers has multiple features (combat, focus on the open world, puzzles) that are not present in Shadow Gens as that game is just a boost game with a small hub world. They are nothing alike imo. >Shadow Generations was sold like a bit of side content to a near-identical remake of Sonic Generations Really? I thought it was the main focus of Sonic X Shadow Generations. I remember that it got the most screentime in trailers and gameplay footage.

>>26133 >even I don't know how they could fix that. just don't do realistic terrain and stick to cartoony textures.

>>26123 >What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? Level design like from Update 3 >How should the sequel improve upon the original game? They should make the combat less shitty. >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? Generic realistic art style. >What could be its vision and design philosophy? I think Frontiers 2 will be the middle-ground between what Sonic fans want and what japanese players liked and disliked about Frontiers.

>>26123 >What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? Challenging and creative platforming like updates 2 and especially 3. Arcade modes like update 1. Fully original level design and locations. Multiple playable characters like update 3. Improved controls with even more freedom of movement. Online multiplayer/races >How should the sequel improve upon the original game? Make the platforms and other objects actually feel like part of the environment >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? The awful pop in >What could be its vision and design philosophy? What we know about this game so far is that Kishimoto treated the Frontiers updates as a testing ground for "Frontiers 2", and that he considers "Frontiers 2" the be "the second game in the third generation", with the first generation being the 2D Classic-like games, and the second generation being Adventure AND boost. But the weird thing nobody talks about is that Kishimoto said "the third generation" isn't simply defined by the "Open Zone" concept, but that there is a "secret" that he hasn't talked about yet that makes Frontiers unique compared to all the previous games. I haven't seen any discussion on what the secret might be. My theory is that the secret is player customization. Frontiers is a box full of toys, and although there are some limitations in place, the goal of the game's design is to let players play however they want. This means, if you don't want to play the normal stages, you don't have to. If you don't want to fish, you don't have to. If you just want to run around randomly, you can just do that for the most part. After you complete the story you unlock the arcade modes and you can just play those instead of running around the Open Zone if that's what you prefer. Previous games force you to complete every objective to progress but in Frontiers you decide what you want to have fun with and that's that. The same design philosophy also applies to the physics sliders, to leaving the Homing Dash in the game for players to experiment with, and even to listening to fan feedback on Twitter for the updates. They saw we like mods and fangames, so they're trying to implement the mods and fangame experience into the actual games as well. People criticize this as the developers not doing their job, asking us to design the game for them, and to an extent I understand that, but I think these are supposed to be like toys for us to play and experiment with. I think it's supposed to be like Mario Maker but without the level editing part (for now?) where each part of the game is designed to work in a certain way and give players creative ways to interact with it. I think this is the direction Kishimoto wants to take his next game(s) in, not necessarily (just) Open Zone

>>26126 >I guess technically you get to run around a tiny section of Angel Island open world in Sonic Adventure. I have fantasized about this many times, long before Frontiers

>>26158 All the promotional material made it clear that SEGA considers Sonic Generations and Shadow Generations to be two separate games in the same style, and that Sonic x Shadow Generations is a collection/bundle that contains both. But I agree most people didn't understand that and just consider Shadow Generations "the Shadow DLC campaign", despite it being the heavily advertised part of the bundle

>>26320 (Me) I just realized I quoted the wrong part of the post >You can have that little section be the same in a new game, as a reference, but then expand upon it tremendously This is what I fantasized about

Hot take: naming it "Frontiers 2" would be stupid.

>>26324 I don't think anyone wants that name or thinks it's going to be called that. Kishimoto called it the second game in the third generation I take things further and say that the name "Adventure 2" was a mistake. They should have given it its own title. I think "Sonic Ultimate" could have worked well

>>26324 >>26325 Isn't it going to be called Sonic Explorers?

>>26326 Even if that "leak" was real (it isn't), it claimed that name was for a metroidvania spinoff where you play as Vanilla

>>26325 I think Adventure could get away with it because the word "Adventure" has more oomph to it than "Frontiers", but I get your point.

The only thing I want is Hyper Sonic to be officially canon.

>>26330 I don't get why it would be so hard?

>>26329 It already is >but Iizuka said It's in the game, so it's canon. What the games do and say and show is what matters, not some random interview/podcast/Twitter post/private message/other random nonsense. If it's in the actual content that we experience, it's canon, if it's outside of the content then it's just an idea that practically doesn't exist

>>26332 >It already is Then I want to see it return in a mainline Sonic game.

>>26333 Yeah that would be cool

>>26327 I know the leak is fake, but I thought they registered the "Explorers" trademark or something?

>>26327 >it claimed that name was for a metroidvania spinoff where you play as Vanilla Honestly, would play.

>>26338 They registered "Sonic Spin Battle" in October 2024 and "Sonic Blitz" in February 2025

>>26123 I'm mostly interested in how they improve the open zone, God knows they've got room for improvement there. The cyberspace equivalent is probably the next most important, having good stages, but I think they've got a really good formula to work with.

>>26347 Smaller maps that are densely packed would be a good change, and the open challenges could be little "mini stages", kind of like the Zelda stage in LW but on a grander scale

>>26349 I disagree, if anything I'd want them bigger and less dense. I'm biased though since the zones feel smaller when you have infinity boost and spindash unlocked. Sometimes I boot of frontiers just to run around the island and I like that there's plenty of room to avoid enemies and obstacles without breaking my pace. Shadow gens's white space felt too cramped to do that. Shadow doesn't level up his speed stat though. Sonic in Frontiers does, so the later islands at least ought to be pretty expansive to let you really zoom around.

>>26366 I'd agree if they can actually give each map an actual identity that isn't just "desert island" or "lava island"

>>26349 >>26366 I think a big open world map that features both dense and empty areas would be ideal. I also want Frontiers 2's open world to be designed with more intent and flow. Kinda like THPS levels which also feature terrain perfect for Sonic gameplay.

I really want to know how legit this will turn out to be, and if that anon talking about playtesting a new sonic where you "build" the levels yourself were real.

>>26422 I think it's the most believable-sounding leak so far. Now that doesn't necessarily mean it's real. There was also a random /sthg/ post that made me suspicious of it

>>26424 I felt like the towers with floating platforms and the dlc was a beta for this concept. They seemed "built" already, and unnatural.

>>26125 I wonder what they will prioritize. Sonicfags or normalfags?

>>26422 >thinks it was silently shitcanned because it hasn't been announced yet Is he retarded? Mario hasn't had a mainline 3D title announced in nearly a fucking decade.

>>26422 >cyberpunk-esque city …So just a regular Sonic city?

>>26332 >It's in the game, so it's canon. It's not necessarily in the canon events of the game. Not everything you can do in the game is necessarily what happened in the canon version. For example, the canon version of the story is clearly Sonic & Tails, followed by Knuckles. Sonic Alone and Tails Alone are obviously not the canon versions of that game. Likewise, there's nothing that indicates Hyper Sonic actually happened. In fact, if you get Hyper Sonic, you don't get the post-credits scene of Eggrobo surviving, which leads into Knuckles' story. That's a flimsy piece of evidence, I know, but it's some evidence that perhaps in the canon version, Sonic got all the Chaos Emeralds but not the Super Emeralds. I do strongly agree with your point that "word of god" does not override what is seen in the actual product, but in this particular case, I'm not sure the actual product shows what you think it shows. For another example, in Sonic CD, the Bad Future is seemingly canon, because in Sonic 4, Metal Sonic is rescued from Stardust Speedway's Bad Future. Is unlikely the people who made Sonic 4 even gave a shit? Yes. But it's in the game, so it is more canon than anything else. Also, all those endings of Shadow the Hedgehog where Shadow kills a main character, like Sonic or Eggman, obviously isn't canon. I don't see Hyper Sonic as being very different from that. Maybe Sonic could become Hyper but has never actually done it in canon.

>>26123 >What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? I want to see an Open World (or Zone or whatever) with actually decently Sonic-looking asthetics and all original level themes. The world needs to feel more alive as well, NPCs are nice, but the environment should change as the story progresses. The game needs to have spectacle as well. Forces tried having spectacle and failed, Frontiers sort of tried it with the Titan fights, but I really want some sort of big setpiece on par with Terminal Velocity or the Orca Chase from Emerald Coast. I would like to see the levels integrated into the world itself, but I wouldn't be outraged at more cyberspace style stages. >How should the sequel improve upon the original game? The rails need to be more integrated into the environment, the terrain itself needs to be less flat, Sonic needs a better moveset, the puzzles and challenges need to be more challenging. >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? No Pinball minigame, no shmup final boss, less pop-in. Make the open world platforming less automated. A couple of the minibosses were also kind of bullshit and would interrupt your flow if you got too close to them. >What could be its vision and design philosophy? Frontiers was carried hard by the open world gameplay loop of going through the floating platforms and collecting tokens (while having enough important challenges and cyberspace levels to keep things from becoming monotonous). Frontiers 2 needs to evolve and interate upon that gameplay loop to be successful.

>>26691 I'm inclined to say they'll try to appease normalfags since almost every time in the past that Kishimoto's been given the choice between normalfags and Sonicfags, he's always pandered to normalfags. >After Secrets Rings' success, he doubled down on the motion controls normalfags had fawned over with Black Knight instead of making a normal Sonic platformer. >Kishimoto based Lost World's sky dildos and lack of a boost off of normalfag playtesters' complaints of falling off the level too often in boost games >Kishimoto said Frontiers' cyberspace stages were put in to avoid alienating traditional Sonic fans (implying that they weren't Frontiers' target demographic) The only times he pandered to Sonicfags was with Forces and Frontiers' DLC and given how Sonicfags received those he's not likely to do it to the same extent again.

>>26778 Oh, I agree with all of that. Hyper Sonic may not have happened in the actual timeline, but it's a possibility in the game, so it exists nonetheless, it's something Sonic can do

>>26798 I'm still mad that Sonic fans on Twitter had a negative reaction to the towers in The Final Horizon. Finally we get some challenging platforming again and they complain about it

>>26927 Why is it such a recurring problem with sonic "fans" desu >Bitching about how the games are too easy "hold right/boost to win" >They get an actual challenging stage/game >They bitch about how it's bullshit and they can't just hold right/boost to win anymore

>>26932 I haven't reached Eggmanland yet (I'm playing Unleashed for the first time), but everything I hear about it makes it sound fun

>>27125 Having played it for the first time not too long ago either, i can confirm it's very fun desu. It's very tough but it's pretty doable, only gets kinda bullshit in the final room with the 2 titans. Otherwise it's really just a test of everything the game has been teaching you up to that point.

>>26932 Because the fans that complain only engage with the franchise for clout. These "fans" played a few hours of Frontiers and then formed opinions on what they like based on what they heard Youtubers (who completed the game) say about it and then repeated and amplified these opinions into Kishimoto's Twitter. When the DLC finally came, these "fans" downloaded completed save files and entered the DLC to play it for the clout only to get raped by Cyberspace 4-B, the First Tower and Knuckles' weird controls. Since these fans have very high opinions of themselves, they immediately conclude that it isn't a skill issue, but instead that Sonic Team was wrong. These negative reactions were further amplified by more twitter "fans" who had never even played the game. At the time when it came out, it was hilarious to see how all the negativity of peoples reactions to it was directly proportional to their skill level/desire for challenge.

>>27211 Yeah, that makes sense, I can believe that >they immediately conclude that it isn't a skill issue, but instead that Sonic Team was wrong. And this sounds familiar. It's just like certain video game reviewers...

>>27211 I still remember that one interaction in /sthg/ >Bitching about how sonic never shuts up and kept going "heh reference" >I mention how when i was playing he never said anything >Get a reply saying that sonic will only ever quip if you idle, and it counts as idling if you don't get anything done for minutes at a time. Kinda opened my eyes to how shit people are at sonic desu.

I wonder how they will approach wall running because it was really janky in Frontiers. It always made you run down cliffs instead of launching you forward like in normal video games. I think that happens because the collision on these cliffs is sloped enough that Sonic can keep himself grounded and transition into a wall run. Another issue is that the cliff faces are way too jagged. It makes wall running feel really unpolished. Maybe that could be solved with a more stylized environment that features sharp edges and smooth walls?

>>27625 Depends if they're going back to realistic environments or cartoony

>>27625 Fuck, why couldn’t the world have actually looked like a Sonic location in Frontiers?

>>27648 Stylized environments don't have to be cartoony in order to be stylized. They just don't have to be fully accurate to real life. You can have smooth walls and sharp edges in an non-cartoony game as that's still stylization.

>>26124 I'd love that and multiple characters to play with besides Sonic.

>>27625 > a more stylized environment that features sharp edges and smooth walls? A city is perfect for this, just think Spiderman with the wallrunning. I just don't want another empty field.

>>27739 It was well received with Frontiers so I expect the next game to have more of that >>27743 Same. I want a new city, and I also want the typical creative environments of previous Sonic games

Which real life city would you like Sonic Team to use as inspiration for the next Sonic game?

>>27748 Tokyo. It looked good in Shadow Gens and it would make the game more appealing to nips.

>>27750 I'm surprised it took them so long to use Tokyo. They needed American involvement for it to happen for some reason, it's weird. I guess a lot of people hated Japan in America in the 2000s but if they did they probably also hated Adventure/2000s style/Japanese Sonic and if they wanted to appeal to Japan as well they could have done it

Since they've just done Tokyo with the movie DLC, maybe they could base it on another Japanese city. Kyoto would be a good one. I think Sapporo could also work if they want something more modern looking

Tokyo looked great but was held back by being a notably automated and 'cutscene' heavy Boost stage. Give me an actual stylised Shibuya to run and jump around in and we could be eating good.

>>26123 I just want it to play like Shadow Generations does , and I want some new Sonic transformations. Super sonic 2 was pretty kino and honestly would be cool to see him go straight to this everytime he transforms from now on.

>>28048 >I just want it to play like Shadow Generations does In what way exactly?

>>28065 Shadow just handled really well and the movement feels like it flows with the level design, responsive controls without alot of the Jank frontiers seems to have. It also has a far superior feeling of momentum.

>>28069 Interesting, I heard this a lot but I haven't played the game yet so it's kinda hard to imagine

>>28070 Play it, its fucking great

>>27625 >sharp edges and smooth walls It's funny how they knew that already in games like 06 but then they unlearned it with Frontiers

>>27756 >I guess a lot of people hated Japan in America in the 2000s You must be very young. If anything Japan was much more popular in America in the 2000s. It was the height of weebdom. Anime was much more mainstream. 4kids might have tried to censor japanese text and stuff, but kids were watching the shows specifically because they were Japanese.

>>28069 Shadow Gens' controls are good but I still wouldn't call them great like a lot of people claim. It feels really slow to me, especially in the 2D levels which has been a problem they've had since Lost World and still haven't fixed. Just let me go as fast as I did in Sonic Rush already if you're going to insist on continuing making 2D sections in these games.

>>28473 >making Sonic Rush your baseline for 2D Sonic instead of one of the Genesis games.

>>28492 Comparing it to Rush because they both have the boost.

>>28444 Well then correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression this was more so the case with specific communities early/mid 2000s communities, mostly filled with teenagers or at most young adults who liked anime/manga, while most older Americans hated Japan and Japanese media, and the "height of weebdom" was more like a controversial sub-community that was at first hated by almost everyone and otherwise only looked cool to younger kids, and so grew in popularity as they got older in the late 2000s/early 2010s. That's how I've come to understand it at least

>>26927 >>26932 >Sonic Team made an update based solely on Fan Feedback >The fans hated it Do you think Kishimoto even knows what made people like Frontiers in the first place given these interactions?

>>28593 I loved it at least, major technical issues aside, I don't understand those Twitter people

>>28593 Imo the only good part of update 3 was its level design. The new playable characters were alright but they also suffered from being really janky and OP. Everything else just wasn't very good.

>>27677 They wanted to appeal to normalfags and nips with the realistic art style

>>27677 >>28869 Several Sonic games from long before Frontiers look like that though

>>28946 They still had more stylization in their environments. With Frontiers, Sonic Team was aiming to create photorealistic scenery.

>>28946 How many of those games are praised for their art style?

>>26123 I wonder if Kishimoto will finally embrace pinball physics with Frontiers 2

>>29178 Do we know what physics mods for Frontiers Kishimoto looked at?

>>29195 https://x.com/FreezyReef/status/1637367419382665216 https://x.com/Proto_arts/status/1876045023780966846 https://x.com/Proto_arts/status/1875193122617258189

>>29178 I love playing with these kinds of physics mods in Frontiers for like 20 minutes and then I get bored because the world isn't designed around them at all.

>>29392 That's why so many want pinball physics in Frontiers 2. That way the open world and the stages would be designed around those physics.

>>29395 Yeah, a Sonic game that plays like my modded Frontiers but with an actual world designed with them in mind and focused on slopes and momentum would be pretty close to my ideal game. The idea of having more traditional stages as gates in the overworld is already a brilliant idea too so you don't lose that side of Sonic's appeal either. Just don't copy paste levels from past games again.

>>29415 I agree. >Just don't copy paste levels from past games again. It's funny that Colors copypasted stages too, but also had just as many (actually more) original stages, and the copypasted ones were done carefully to fit with its gameplay where it's more like a little reference. Frontiers basically used the same idea but didn't do it as well as Colors

After the release of Sonic Frontiers, Sonic Team split into two teams. The first team was smaller, led by Morio Kishimoto, and handled Frontiers' updates and the pre-production of Frontiers 2. The second team was much larger and focused on developing Sonic x Shadow Generations. Once Sonic x Shadow Generations was completed, the second team rejoined the first to move Frontiers 2 into full production. This is why Shadow Generations didn’t receive any DLC aside from the Movie one. Sega probably wants to release Sonic Frontiers 2 alongside their Power Surge reboot games we saw at https://youtu.be/0VHYLJR9pNg?si=67h4RF3sidd2wW0x Shinobi: Art of Vengeance was the first of these Power Surge titles to get a release date which is August 29, 2025. I hope that means we won't have to wait long for Frontiers 2.

>>27625 Even the CG trailer has sharper cliffs than Frontiers lol

>>29567 Shinobi was the furthest along in development of any of the games shown in that trailer while most of the other stuff was still in very early development. I guess Sega technically has until June 23 to announce a new mainline Sonic Title for release this year (they announced Superstars in mid-June), but I get the feeling that Frontiers 2 won't be out until 2026.

I kinda liked the combat in frontiers, they just have to remove the camera jank that they're trying to emulate from soulless gacha garbage that zooms camera in and out for "dynamic" effect, make parry actually parry and punish you for missing it You know, something unleashed did with the werehog 16 years ago

>>30008 They did that with the bosses in update 3 but unfortunately the animations weren't designed around it so it's communicated poorly in most instances. Giganto and Knight are okay, but Wyvern's attacks are complete garbage, especially the second attack

>>30008 >>30020 Frontiers' combat is not Sonic-like enough because most of your moves kill your speed. Why does Sonic have a parry anyway? He should be dodging things instead. He should be using his speed to his advantage.

>>30065 I don't think it's necessarily a problem that the combat stops you (although I dislike the forced combat of the mid 2000s because it's forced and that gets boring). The Cyloop is a cool idea that fits what you're saying though

>>30142 >I don't think it's necessarily a problem that the combat stops you It breaks your flow hard and it also makes the combat less satisfying. >The Cyloop is a cool idea that fits what you're saying though True. It's the best move from Frontiers. I wish Sonic's entire moveset followed Cyloop's design.

I typed up a big rant about why I don't like frontiers before on a different site but I don't want to type a brick wall again like I tend to do, my gripes with it are basically >Combat sucks ass, its just button mashing and some enemies completely stop you in your tracks just to waste time, and there's hardly any reward for doing combat aside from the same shit you can get from running in a circle. Werehog was so much better >Environments are bland and boring and the boost has been completely flanderized to the point of just being a run button, one you also need to charge up now by running in circles to get max rings >Puzzles are the most uninspired shit ever >Cyberspace feels horrendous to control, nothing like the old boost stages from gens and unleashed. >I'm not one to care for sonic lore but the story might just be the worst sonic story from any game, worse than 06 bc 06 at least had cool vibes, broken as it was. Genuinely horrendous writing. I liked the cyloop and most of the platform challenges but that was mostly it. It sucks because I was really excited for this game, then when it came out, I couldn't even finish it. To this day I haven't gone back to try and finish it. I'm glad it did well but goddamn I really hope they change shit up for the sequel

>>30065 Parrying is fine imo, just not the way Frontiers handled it. It should be a button press and you should be able to do it mid combo. The way it worked on that game is more like a block than an actual parry. The question is how should it work, like sekiro or MGR where you simply press attack towards the enemy.

>>30407 >Parrying is fine imo I just don't think it fits Sonic very well. His combat style should be centered around movement and flow and parries disincentive that unlike dodges for example. >The question is how should it work, like sekiro or MGR where you simply press attack towards the enemy. MGR has the better parry mechanic because it has actual risk/reward thanks to its input. In Sekiro you can press the block button early and then hold it. That way you get a parry if you time it right and if you don't then you just block the attack instead of getting hit. It's basically an option select that heavily mitigates risk from parrying.

All I'm getting is that combat doesn't fit Sonic at all, which is fair Which means all combat gameplay that involve Sonic is garbage, including adventure games that forces you to stop and kill shit

>>30379 Frontier 2 level is design is fucking cooked because very faggot that said frontiers was easy complained when they dropped updated 3. Please let me be wrong.

The one big wild card for Frontiers 2 is what normalfags want from it. We have no idea what the millions of normalfags who bought Frontiers enjoyed and hated about the game. Kishimoto, thanks to how extensively he playtests games, probably already knows what the average non-fan wants from Frontiers 2 and we're going to be completely blindsided by it when the game and whatever it does to pander to normalfags are revealed.

>>30515 Let's do the reverse, what do YOU fags want from Frontiers 2? Type a wall if you have to

>>30526 metroidvania where you play as Vanilla

>>30515 That's an interesting point >>30526 Content just like the 3 Frontiers updates, but actually polished. Good looking, completely new, original environments. Improvements to the Frontiers controls and moveset. More memorable "open zones"/hubs, with game design more like Unleashed. NPCs, preferably humans in the style of Shadow Generations. No 2D sections. Challenging platforming. Multiple playable characters. Arcade modes. Time attack replays and online multiplayer. Jun Senoue as the sound director and lead music composer. In-character dialogue, nice character moments and interactions, and cool memorable action scenes (preferably primarily integrated into the stages). A new playable character, maybe a male one since we've been getting plenty of girls recently.

>>30526 See Update 3 and shadow gen's 3d stages? THAT except tone the 2D down, also more on Frontier Update 3 because that really punishes you for not knowing your controls Time trials? Make them as gruelling(for beginners) as cyber 1-2 Also INCREASE THE SPEED BABYYYYYY Combat? Yeah whatever sure, maybe make it snappier and stop the camera bullshit

>>26125 ShadGen was a packed-in game, Frontiers is a whole standalone release. Hardly a fair comparison. Shadow should get an actual standalone game eventually.

>>26927 To be fair, it's SEGA fault for leaving the difficulty on hard for anyone entering in TFH. Because the boss rush is pure ass.

>>30441 >including adventure games that forces you to stop and kill shit That's not the Adventure games, that's Heroes, 2006, Rush, Unleashed, and one stage in Colors.

>the japanese market they should really accept that the jap market is secondary since that's mario land over there literally the west modding scene kept this little blue shit alive when their homeland couldn't give a singular fuck about it until recently but hey, xenophobia and nationality i guess

>>30618 To be fair to Sega, they required you complete 80% of the game to access the DLC and you'd get a message advising you to complete the base game before going into the Final Horizon when you first entered the portal. It doesn't excuse the boss rush, but they at least tried to make sure players had to be fairly competent to enter the DLC.

>>30526 > what do YOU fags want from Frontiers 2? >Open zone A return to more cartoony aesthetic, i want the open zones to look more like what adventure/unleashed did but as playable areas instead of just hubs, i don't care if they are smaller overall, i just need them to feel like levels on their own, the islands were a good concept and they should expand on it. >Cyberspace Make the levels fully original, you could even base them off the zone they are in, doing it like shadow gens where it's 2 levels, one fully 3d and one 2d could even work, just stop recycling old shit or at least have them as bonus stages instead of being most of it. >Combat More combos, more moves, and focus more on actually coming closer to a real spectacle fighter, it really would benefit if they added rankings too depending on how well you do, just encourage you to do more than button mash desu. >Missions More platforming challenges and races against the clock, less 1 button minigames desu The bosses are the only thing that can stay the same, i'd argue the titans might just be the best bossfights in sonic simply because of spectacle alone, it's really all we need.

Keep Homing Boost/Dash, funniest funnest shit Sonic had, it's like air boost but perfected Thanks

>>30443 >Playtesters had trouble with the boost in Colors >Kishimoto removes it entirely for Lost World >Playtesters have trouble with timing the parry in Frontiers' betas >Kishimoto removes all timing and breaks the parry, allowing Sonic to hover in mid air indefinitely >Playtesters have trouble with Frontiers' puzzles >Kishimoto makes them all piss easy so nobody will complain Given the how many people were bitching at Kishimoto over the Final Horizon's difficulty, Frontiers 2 will probably be the easiest Sonic game ever made.

>>30964 Oh yeah, I like the Homing Dash too

>>30974 Or give us a proper difficulty option so we can choose

>>30526 All the shits anon said above But keep the composers Keep the bangers

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt32575595/?ref_=nm_flmg_job_3_unrel_t_1 Frontiers 2 already has an IMDB listing, not that that means anything.

shouldn't they just remove boost if modern is going to get drop dash? they serve the same purpose anyway but boost also works on air, so why even give modern drop dash in the first place I don't get it

>>31655 The drop dash was well received in Mania, so they put it in Frontiers. That's the entirety of their thought process, they didn't really think of it from a gameplay perspective. The same things happened with the Wisps and Classic Sonic. Drop Dash is better than the boost when going uphill and over rough terrain, but it's just happenstance that it works like that.

>>31655 >>31895 also going back to frontiers, wallrun is so weird, shouldn't the right trigger/R2(boost button) movement be the default movement for sonic while holding down said button should let you boost despite being vertical since sonic literally does that in ever media that isn't video game and even if they did make it move like that, it'd be still kinda ass, they fixed it though, in Shadow Generations that is. doom morph is exactly how sonic should move on vertical surfaces except you could boost really hope they do that in frontiers 2

>>32437 Given they apparently have two separate development teams, idk if they will take much from one game to the other. But we'll see

It's still surprising that The Final Horizon had no 2D, especially because Shadow Generations does. I wonder how it will be for Frontiers 2.

>>32602 My hope is that the only 2D segments in Frontiers 2 are either restricted to areas of the open world where they can't accidentally be entered or tucked away in that game's equivalent of Cyberspace. Though I'd prefer they not include them in the first place, especially given how badly Sonic controlled in 2D in Frontiers.

>>32787 I like the 2D in Colors and even Forces (except Classic). Which is most of those games. They should just make separate Modern 2D games. You know like they used to.

>>32791 >They should just make separate Modern 2D games. Sonic Team's still traumatized from a decade and half of Classicfags bitching at them.

I think Kishimoto sees the Drift as a gimmick rather than a core game mechanic like in Unleashed and Generations. His games only use it in specific sections, or even just a single stage in the case of Frontiers. And they just kinda alter your control scheme instead of being part of the actual movement. People used to say this was because of the Wii's limited amount of buttons and maybe it was true, but he kept doing that for all his other games. But he also tried to implement drifting in the Super Sonic fights in Frontiers at some point, which confuses me.

>>33238 I think the drift in the Supers Sonic fights was meant to be available in the open world as well, but Kishimoto felt it was unnecessary with Sonic's tighter turning radius.

>>33257 Oh wait, I misremembered, they did leave the Drift in the Super Sonic fights. But it's completely pointless and the game doesn't tell you about it. Did they just forget to take it out? So anyway you're probably right, it doesn't make sense in the boss fights regardless

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Drift >A leaked beta of the Xbox 360/PlayStation 3 version of Sonic Unleashed that is dated to be close to the game's release showed that the decision to drift using the controller's triggers was made very late into the game's development - nearly one month before release. The drift itself was still present in these builds, but could only be executed using B So that's why the game tells me to press B to drift even though that's not how it works. They forgot to change it

>>33260 >Did they just forget to take it out? Knowing Sonic Team, that's the most likely explanation.

>>33238 The thing about the drift is that it's completely unnecessary if Sonic's turning is tight enough and easy to control.

>>33313 Are drift mechanics worth the more limited controls? I think they're two different gameplay styles with their own appeal. But even then Generations made the drift easier, so I guess most people aren't fond of Unleashed's harder drift mechanics.

What is Sonic telling Kishimoto that he wants for Frontiers 2?

>>34070 human women

>>34071 What is Tori's deal?

>>32439 >separate teams >team b, the back up, made a better sonic game(shadow generations) than team a, the main(frontiers) that's grim isn't it?

>>32439 Has anyone gone through the credits of Shadow Gens to see how much overlap there is between the two teams? Regardless, it will be interesting to see how closely the A and B Teams stay too each other's styles given that Nakamura is "the boost to win guy" while Kishimoto would supposedly prefer to make Sonic slower. Shadow Gens and Frontiers 2 are both built off of Frontiers, so there are a lot of similarities now, but there's a good chance that Frontiers 3 will be built off of Frontiers 2 while whatever B Team makes will build on Shadow Gens so you'll gradually start to see the two Teams' games take on different styles as time goes on.

>>34308 Kishimoto definitely prefers more traditional platforming than the Unleashed style. He said a bunch of times that he likes Super Mario Bros 3 and that it's one of his main inspirations

>>34308 Kishimoto literally should just make platform levels he wants while keeping the shadgen movement while keeping shit from frontiers 1 like sonic's tighter turning radius and magnet dash People who can't handle fast action platforming will still do the slow platforming he loves while sonic fans, aka autists, will speed run the fuck out of it with nakamura's boost speed shitck

I wonder if the 2nd team has all the old animators from previous games before frontiers The in-game scenes in SSxG were infinitely better than Frontiers, especially the camera work

>>34321 Might just be a learning curve sort of thing, Frontiers was the first game without Marza doing the cutscenes for them so Sonic Team had to do them themselves and now they've had enough practice making their own cutscenes to actually make stuff that looks decent.

>>34321 >>34323 I just assumed it was the new people they supposedly hired after the success of Frontiers

>>34324 Could be that too

>>34310 >He said a bunch of times that he likes Super Mario Bros 3 and that it's one of his main inspirations No wonder why Colors, Lost World and Forces all had level select screens that looked like the one from SMB3. I think he even mentioned that Frontiers's Open World started out as a level select area as well (which is part of why it was so empty so late into development).

>>26124 this isn't gonna happen if the focus remains fixed on getting dopamine hits whenever you press the boosty button while running in a straight line at least frontiers added more variety to the formula

If Frontiers 2 has to be an asset flip of another Sega game, which game should that be?

>>35222 I don't even know why people have been saying Frontiers is an asset flip of PSO2. It's just a generic grassy field, it's not literally the same assets

>>35223 They had a lot of the same artists working on both games.

>>26123 Am I crazy to think that Frontiers 2 will double down on the realistic aesthetic? Kishimoto made the Cyberspace stages as an attempt to satisfy fans' demand for traditional Sonic gameplay and aesthetics and given all the criticism he got for the asset reuse he might make them look more like the overworld as a response. I even recall him tweeting something that implied he thought that people didn't want "traditional Sonic aesthetics", but it's kind if impossible to look through his tweets.

>>36373 You aren't crazy for thinking that, but it's also worth noting that this series almost always has a different style from game to game, sometimes with drastic differences. >Adventure >Adventure 2 >Heroes >Shadow 2005/Sonic 2006 >Unleashed/Colors/Generations >Lost World >Forces >Frontiers These all have major differences. I guess Forces was trying to mix Lost World with the realistic Unleashed/Colors/Generations environment style, but still. Also, I remember Kishimoto was surprised when people on Twitter told him they were tired of returning stages and wanted new environments. So I think he will try to do that. I don't know who's responsible for the environments in Colors, but those were great, and it was one of Kishimoto's games. If he was responsible for those, then I think he can do a good job again.

>>36376 here's the tweet btw

>>36556 Slightly less bad than I thought. I just hope he realizes that they're only not well liked because they've been copy-pasted into every game in the last decade.

How will Frontiers 2 try to remedy the fact that a majority of Frontiers players quit before the end of the tutorial?

>>37263 I don't think there's anything they can do, it's like that with games in general. For some reason people don't play games

How far along is Frontiers 2 into development right now? Given that it likely began preproduction in early 2023, shouldn't we be close to entering the phase where lots of playtesting is done (and leaks begin trickling out)?

>>38549 Maybe leaks are already happening and we're not noticing them. Like with Frontiers early on

>>38622 Maybe, but they'd be impossible to find amid the sea of fake leaks. I guess it might be easier to filter a lot of them out by removing everything with the name Sonic Blitz since we know that that's a mobile game, but still, there'd be a lot of fakes.

I remember some time ago I found a YouTube video where some guy showed the earliest Frontiers leak. It was years before anyone else, and it was on Twitter. Some guy who knew the game was going to have open areas set on various islands. I wish I had saved the video or a link, because I've never seen anyone talk about it and it was interesting, but I don't know how to search for it now

>>38912 About when did you see the video? Try searching Youtube for "frontiers leak" and filtering out everything posted before the game's release and after when you think you saw the video.

>>38936 I don't remember unfortunately, I think it was at some point after release but I don't really know when

>>39023 Here's the oldest Frontiers leak I'm aware of, so the first Twitter leak probably came out around the same time. I'll try doing some digging through Youtube videos about Frontiers leaks and let you know if anything like what you're describing comes up.

There is a leak that said: >Frontiers 2 is targeting a November 2026 release >The game will build on the open-zone style >Ian Flynn will return as the main writer. >It's going to be a lot more focused than the first game >It'll be less all over the place >Focus on quality is the big thing Sonic Team is striving for with this title. Thoughts?

>>39435 >Ian Flynn will return as the main writer. This better be fake. The last thing we need is more tonally confused depressing atmospheres in Sonic games.

>>39435 Those are all easy guesses. It sounds realistic, but it also doesn't really say anything

>>39439 Why are you crediting Ian for that? Also, Sonic Team rarely uses the same style and tone twice in a row. Usually they don't even use it a second time at all

>>39439 Look, I've grown tired of how Flynn is handling things lately, but it's still better than all the games starting with Colors. >>39445 >Sonic Team rarely uses the same style and tone twice in a row. Usually they don't even use it a second time at all Colors, Generations, and Lost World were all pretty much the same tone. And even Forces felt like that same tone with a hint of sarcastic "edge," like "here, is this what you wanted?!"

Man I remember some fake leak for frontiers 1 where it was said void from shuffle would return as a villain. It won't happen in the sequel but I really wish it would

>>39479 Void should have been in Dream Team, since it's about a dream world.

>>39435 I guarantee this is 100% accurate, but it's all such easy guesses that this probably isn't even a real leak.

The anniversary is coming soon, and potentially a Sonic Central stream. Since there are no interesting games coming out this year, maybe they'll show us a short Frontiers 2 CG teaser that doesn't tell us anything about the game

>>39585 Maybe they'll do the announcement of an announcement thing again. But they've been so quiet despite being just a few days before the anniversary. How many days in advance did they announce the previous Sonic Centrals?

>>39590 >How many days in advance did they announce the previous Sonic Centrals? Like 1 or 2. I checked it on their xitter account

>>39590 >>39591 Also worth noting that last year they preferred to do it later on in the year rather than at the anniversary, the anniversary doesn't guarantee anything. A Sonic Central could happen at any moment

>>39591 1 or 2 days?? Damn, that's such short notice, there's still hope then. >>39592 >the anniversary doesn't guarantee anything Yeah maybe, but the expectation is there. Who knows if they're gonna do anything later in the year.

>>39592 The stated reason for skipping last year's anniversary was that there was not enough stuff to announce on the anniversary. If we don't get a Sonic Central on the 23rd, then we aren't getting any major announcements for the next few months.

Do you guys think the White Space from Shadow Gens would be a good blueprint for the open zone(s) in Frontiers 2?

>>39662 I didn't enjoy ShadGens' Whitespace anywhere as much as I did Frontiers' Open Zone, it didn't allow for the freedom and the fun gameplay loop that Frontiers did. Hopefully Frontiers 2's Open Zone goes more in its own direction instead of aping Shadow Gens. I think how the platforming is integrated into the hubworld in Shadow Gens is something that Frontiers 2 should try to replicate.

>>39665 How does the platforming differ compared to the open zone in The FInal Horizon and base Frontiers?

>>39665 >I didn't enjoy ShadGens' Whitespace anywhere as much as I did Frontiers' Open Zone For me it's the opposite. I like the White Space more because its level design is similar to Utopia's in how you dense the hub was with platforming. It was far from perfect but I still enjoyed it. >it didn't allow for the freedom I don't think both of them allow for player freedom because they both feature linear level design. >Hopefully Frontiers 2's Open Zone goes more in its own direction instead of aping Shadow Gens. What would that be? >I think how the platforming is integrated into the hubworld in Shadow Gens is something that Frontiers 2 should try to replicate. I'm kinda mixed on that because both Frontiers and Shadow Gens at making the player enter the platforming sections. They both have very specific entrances that are annoying to find and their exits can feel pretty random so you never know where they are going to take you. >>39671 It has less automated sequences and it features a lot of platforming sections that only exist to make going to your destination more fun. The platforming sections are also way less complex and difficult than the ones from The FInal Horizon.

>>39672 >I don't think both of them allow for player freedom because they both feature linear level design. They were both linear, but Frontiers felt open enough to where I could chain together platforming challenges and move more freely than I could in Shadow Gens. Also, Shadow Gens' Whitespace was a bit too reliant on the Doom Powers to the point of it getting in the way sometimes. >What would that be? Allowing more player expression instead of locking the player into straight, automated platforming segments >I'm kinda mixed on that because both Frontiers and Shadow Gens at making the player enter the platforming sections. They both have very specific entrances that are annoying to find and their exits can feel pretty random so you never know where they are going to take you. Yeah, if the platforming didn't lock you in a single direction or automated sequence, it would help both games a lot. Of course the ultimate solution to this issue would be to make everything so integrated into the environment that it would be obvious where each platforming segment leads (if you see a rail and platforms integrated into a hill, it'll be more obvious that they take you up the hill than just copypasting an entrance).

>>39676 >but Frontiers felt open enough to where I could chain together platforming challenges and move more freely than I could in Shadow Gens. I thought chaining those platforming sections together was easier in Shadow Gens because the White Space is really dense with them. That density also makes ground movement more difficult, since there are always platforming sections in your way, preventing you from moving as freely as in Frontiers. >Allowing more player expression instead of locking the player into straight, automated platforming segments That sounds fun. Should they follow the 3D Mario formula of making the main path easy to traverse and light on platforming, so the player would have to go out of their way to find platforming challenges?

I hope Frontiers 2 will have level design that provides multiple ways of getting the collectables. Sonic CD is a good example of that.

>>40682 thats facts, if there was ever a sonic game bringing back time travel, the generators mixed with better frontiers gameplay and it being open world it could 100% win game of the year

Since Shadow Gens brought back item boxes in its levels, will Frontiers 2 do the same? Adding some shields, invincibility and other powerups hidden around the open world would make exploring a lot more rewarding and they'd actually be useful since Sonic can get hit while boosting in Frontiers.

>>40812 I think Sonic Team stopped using item boxes in 3D because with the way they worked in Adventure it kinda wasn't necessary and it was similar enough if you just run into them anyway. I was surprised (and glad in a way even if it doesn't mean much) to see them back in Shadow Generations And that's a good point, since these "open zones" are more about experimental movement and things like that they could give us more elemental shields/other powerups to play around with, now I want to see that

>>30379 06 as bad as it is, was still a Sonic story with those same story elements and every environment had somewhat of a distinct identity that made them stand out (in a vacuum). Frontiers has 3 generic open worlds with unfitting geometry littered all over the place with no cohesion at all and a bunch of minigame levels all of which are ripped from previous games. Worst of all, nothing about the plot actually makes sense and is a testament to Ian Flynn's abysmal writing and lack of understanding of the franchise.

>>40851 >levels all of which are ripped from previous games False. Some of them have completely original level design >is a testament to Ian Flynn's abysmal writing and lack of understanding of the franchise You're giving him more credit than you should. His only contributions were the English dialogue and making the Ancients related to the Chao (he had no idea how Sonic Team interpreted this idea while writing the dialogue, apparently they didn't show him the designs for the Ancients until after he was done) Other than that your criticism is fair

>>40851 Flynn clearly understands the franchise. Anyone who has read all his Sonic work can see that he understands it very well. He has extremely autistic knowledge of every piece of the franchise, and has been able to tie it all together in very interesting ways in the past. Any problems with his newer stuff (and I do have problems with it) isn't due to lack of understanding.

>>40879 >Anyone who has read all his Sonic work can see that he understands it very well. He knows a lot about it but anyone can know a lot about anything. That doesn't mean they understand it.

>>40880 Okay, maybe I actually agree with you. The issue is that Flynn is clearly a fan of the comics first. He's never watched Dragon Ball Z, which the games are clearly based on. He has western cartoon sensibilities, and he applies them to an anime franchise. This is made even worse with modern western cartoons being extremely SJW. Then again, even SatAM was Sally being the main character girlboss and constantly making Sonic look like her chump of a sidekick. And that's clearly Flynn's favorite part of the franchise.

>>40879 What about that time he asked how Sonic survived in SA2

>>40883 Didn't know about that. But even the game itself shows awe at that. He only had a fake emerald. He shouldn't have been able to do it. Was Tails' replica really that good, or is it that Sonic is just that special? That's always how I took it in the game, anyway. Was Flynn just pondering this question? I don't know.

Flynn starts writing by opening the Sonic wiki. He then begins copying and pasting random passages from it into a story web of ideas. He then starts gyrating his beanbag shaped body up and down like a living bouncy ball as he rewrites the characters to all be archetypes of generic webcomic characters from 2004.

>>40884 No, apparently Ian was asking "how did Sonic get out of the capsule by using stopping time" when Chaos Control can also warp things as well To be honest I think he just had trouble remembering that day, it happens sometimes, people are probably too negative about that. But at the same time he's made a number of similar mistakes in recent times and he doesn't seem to even apologize for them unlike Evan. I don't hate him but I think he should be more careful >Was Tails' replica really that good, or is it that Sonic is just that special? I never thought about that, but I think the answer must be both

>>40885 No, I really think you're not giving him enough credit. You gotta read some of his older stuff. Like when he managed to tie The Arc of the Cosmos from Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity into a decade long prophecy arc left over from Ken Penders. It was well done and explaining it would take multiple posts. There are a bunch of small things like that, often subtle, that shows me he has pretty intricate knowledge and sometimes has clever ideas with them. But yeah, most of the time it's tying in with the comic lore, because clearly that's what he likes best. Another example I thought was clever was when he established, in just one panel (so it was pretty subtle and not in your face), that Snivley was inside the Eggrobo that menaces Knuckles in Sonic & Knuckles. He uses that to explain why Mecha Sonic would turn on that Eggrobo, why it was operating independently from Eggman, and to further Snivley's story. One more was when he had it so in Archie lore, Naugus and Witchkart made Crystal Egg Zone from 8-bit Sonic 2. That was pretty clever. I also thought things like the Eclipse Saga and Scrapnik Island arcs did pretty good stuff with game material. I do have problems with his characterization of the characters, but I think Stanley does it worse, and it got worse once she started writing, which almost makes me think Flynn is being influenced by her. He has to follow the way other writers characterize the characters. He's too autistic to even ignore what Ken Penders wrote. That said, Flynn is also a massive SJW, so I don't mean to act like he wouldn't fuck up the characters badly anyway. He's obviously a big proponent of Amy never showing love for Sonic, and instead being treated as some sort of muscle character, making Knuckles redundant.

>>40894 This is what everyone always said about Ian until like 2022 or 2023 before the new narrative started getting pushed. I haven't experienced most of his work so I don't like to express myself on it, I find it weird how so many people were confident that he was the best writer ever, and now are confident that he's the worst, without having read his works. I feel like way too many people are easily manipulated into following what appears to be the "popular" opinion, I'm afraid it happens often

>>40899 He got much more attention due to working on Frontiers, and that brought a different audience. He was overrated at first because he replaced Penders, and he polished the turd that was Archie Sonic as well as anyone could ever hope. But compared to the stories of games like Sonic Adventure or Adventure 2? His average story isn't quite as good. And if you try to start with the current comics, you're gonna get a bunch of bullshit about the Diamond Cutters, the worst collection of characters since Knuckles's family. Hopefully those cunts are gone for good now.

>>40899 I don't think it's a new narrative by remotely the same people/community, or any sort of haters or whatever. Over the past few years, Ian has become directly involved with the games, which has brought him to the attention of people that only care about the games, which are a different kind of autist. To speak in broad, shallow terms, in general, videogame autists care less about factual references than comic autists. Mario making bing bing wahoo noises is much more important than him being shaped by the trials of his adventures in Dinosaur Land.

>>40909 But Sonic autists do care about story, because the Dreamcast games focused heavily on story. That's why they don't like the writing in Frontiers. It's all touchy feely Stephen Universe bullshit, instead of shonen anime DBZ ripoff bullshit. We're not talking about Mario autists, we're talking about Sonic autists. Also I think Flynn gets extra flak for Frontiers because people think he did more than he really did. Ultimately the game still has a very thin plot, and that wasn't his choice. He just did the best he could with it. I still think he could have done better with it, because I agree that I don't love the characterization of all the characters (primarily Amy and Sonic), but if he got to do a bigger story, he might be able to show off more of his talents.

>>40913 Frontiers was trying to have the tone of Evangelion. The tone for the game wasn't chosen by Ian Flynn, and it's nothing like Steven Universe. >people think he did more than he really did Yeah.

>>40917 The character interactions are touchy feely Stephen Universe bullshit. I know that's how Flynn writes now because I also read the comics, and I can see the similarities between the writing in the comics and the writing in Frontiers. That said, he did a much better job on Shadow Generations (though I'm not sure exactly how much he did on that). If stuff he writes in the future is more like Shadow Generations, I'll be very pleased.

>>40907 >>40909 It is a new narrative and the different audience is clearly a part of it, but at the same time it doesn't feel natural. Looking back, the praise Ian was getting when everyone was asking for him on the games doesn't feel very natural either. The public perception of Ian Flynn went from one extreme to the other and his fans seem to have mostly disappeared

>>40913 That's not what I meant, and I suppose I gave a bad example. Look at Metal Gear. It's chock full of humor, yes, but it's overall meant to deliver its message seriously, and it discusses generically heavy topics like war, censorship, governmental control, and the role of the soldier in society. Hideo Kojima is also pretty well known for wanting to be taken seriously as a writer, though that's obviously memetically overblown. Anyway, the point is, Metal Gear is a mostly serious, story driven series, and it regularly throws in twists that, while technically possible, were obviously not being thought of when a plot point was originally introduced. Videogame stories are similar to Saturday morning cartoons: anything in a past installment is fair game to be brought back, but it's expected to just ignore it and focus solely on the current story. How is Sonic the same age, despite having had a birthday party on screen? Answer: it doesn't matter, and you shouldn't assume he has changed unless specified otherwise. All that to say: no amount of Ian knowing about old stuff, regardless of how well it is incorporated, will make up (to gamefags) for having inaccurate characterization.

>>40921 >no amount of Ian knowing about old stuff, regardless of how well it is incorporated, will make up (to gamefags) for having inaccurate characterization. Not him but I see your point now. And as a gamefag I do indeed agree.

>>40919 I think another thing to consider is that the comics have gotten more boring in the last few years. Flynn's been writing less and Stanley's been writing more, and even Flynn's stuff has been dragged down by the boring stories (which may very well be influenced by Stanley). Flynn's best work isn't the recent comics work. The heavy focus on the Diamond Cutters would reasonably make people turn away, and new people won't even know about cool stuff he did on the comics years ago (and for stuff he did in the Archie comics, new people won't even understand it. It isn't even reasonable to expect them to since they'd have to read over ten years of shitty comics to understand it). Basically, Flynn's work has actually been on a downturn since around the time Frontiers came out. But Shadow Generations was good so maybe things will turn around. >>40921 >characterization is most important Yeah, I agree with that. I do think Sonicfags, including game fags, care about the plot relating to past games, as several past games did a good job with that. But the characters come first. If you don't get the characters right, everything else is moot. That's why Sonic works in so many retarded adaptations anyway. People like the characters, no matter what stupid worlds you throw them into.

>>40926 >But Shadow Generations was good so maybe things will turn around. Given that Shadow Gens' story is just a rehash of stories that were written 20 years prior, I wouldn't count on it being a sign of things getting better.

>>40928 It was references to stories from before but it wasn't like it was a clip show in the story department. It was kind of a clip show in the level themes, but not the story. It's a story which builds on previous stories. That's called a sequel. It's still basically add-on content for a rerelease of a 13 year old game, so it's not as long or fleshed out as a full game, but it's a good sign.

>>40919 Ian's hardcore fans were mostly archiefags, once that died for good most of his fans evaporated since it wasn't hitting the same on other works like IDW. I admit i'm not the most experienced with Ian's writing but from what i can tell he seems like the kind of guy who does better the more stuff he has to play with but sucks at working with restrictions (see how sega became much more hands on with the comics after archie died to avoid making another autismfest), like he's good at making long epic sagas that reference and blend every aspect from the franchise but struggles with making short, self-contained stories that aren't necessarily building up to something greater. I could very well be wrong about that though.

>>40894 I changed my mind when Amy became a different character. When IDW was first published, Amy was still herself. Sometime between then and now she was changed and that's when I noticed the writing sucks now. It may very well be possible that he just started sucking, that's a factor, if you think he was good before and wonder why people hate him now, the simple answer might be he has changed how he writes, subtle enough to not notice until you look a the big picture then realize how much less you like the stories.

>>40931 I was inclined to agree with your assessment, but honestly my favorite Flynn arcs are pretty self contained. Worlds Collide is almost entirely self contained, and it's the best, because it's just pure Sonic and Mega Man autism. It's all I could ever want from that crossover. Shadow Fall is basically a four issue direct sequel to Shadow the Hedgehog, it works self contained (except you should know Shadow the Hedgehog) and it's great. It was followed up by two more arcs about Eclipse, basically making a 12 issue Eclipse Saga, but that saga is pretty self contained and pretty great. I also like Scrapnik Island, which is a four issue self contained arc. And the first 12 issue story from the IDW comics was pretty awesome, too. Now, granted, all my examples do reference the games pretty heavily, but I think that's what you should expect from a game adaptation comic. Worlds Collide is all about just having every Sonic and Mega Man character meet. The Eclipse Saga is a sequel to Shadow the Hedgehog. Scrapnik Island is a sequel to Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Advance. That first IDW arc is a direct sequel to Forces with some significant references to Heroes. But I wouldn't say this is the same as some of the old Archie lore where Flynn impressed fans by wrapping up ten year long Penders stories, or taking tons of old elements from shitty obscure comics and putting them together. All the cases I'm citing are "let's do direct sequels to plots from the games." But they're all 4 or 12 issue arcs that only really need you to know those particular games. >>40933 I strongly agree with you about Amy. The thing is that the change was slow enough that it wasn't immediately noticed. Also, I still want to put a lot of the blame on Stanley. But Flynn is certainly not blameless. He was always a Sallyfag anyway. In the Archie comics he actually got Sonic and Sally back together even though they were broken up for years by the time he started writing. Of course this necessitates changing how Amy works in the story. It's not that I'm a SonAmy fan, Bardonic for life, bitches, but it is that Amy is a main character and is defined by her relationship with Sonic. But Flynn and other feminists are offended by that, so they can't allow it. Sonic can't be too cool for the girl that simps for him. He has to be a loser that simps for the girl that's the real boss that the story revolves around.

What do we think about this "leak"?

>>41363 Sounds too ambitious to be real given Sonic Team's post Unleashed track record. Also, the fact that he never gave any context for how he knows about this is also kind of suspicious. However this is somehwat more believable than other leaks I've seen.

>>41364 >Sounds too ambitious to be real given Sonic Team's post Unleashed track record Really? Shadow Gens already had a similar concept with how its levels seamlessly transition into Radical Highway.

>>41363 There's nothing that makes it sound fake, but also nothing that makes it sound real either Interesting that other characters are playable, but Knuckles isn't

>>41363 He writes like a faggot and I just can't take it seriously. >>41364 >However this is somehwat more believable than other leaks I've seen. Post them.

>>41368 Not him but I like collecting them so here's the ones I have https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/704584802 https://arch.b4k.dev/vg/thread/520335142/#520345287 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/691115178 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/690523081 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/682447210 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/687888635 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/687823129 https://arch.b4k.dev/vg/thread/503204762/#q503245721 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/695189027 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/690966102 These are for CrossWorlds https://arch.b4k.dev/vg/thread/531549073/#531569032 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/668622303

>>41369 Those Frontiers 2 leaks have no cohesion between them so most of them are probably fake.

>>41373 I haven't reread them right now so I'm not sure if I had the link to those two, but there was some guy who made two slightly different fake leaks to give himself credibility. It was easy to tell it was the same guy from the way he typed certain things

>>41369 There's actually some effort and original ideas put into the first ones, kek. >>41373 >>41376 A lot of them keep repeating the "Summit Spire" island.

>>41416 The Summit Spire leaks sound the least fake. There are also leaks that mention Unreal Engine and Sonic being able to travel through dimensions.

>>41416 Probably just a game of telephone with newer leakers trying to get their leaks to line up with older leaks to get more attention.

>>41416 I still haven't read them with a fresh mind, but at the time when they were posted I remember thinking the first one sounded somewhat believable, and there was something about the "summit spire" stuff that made me think it was fake

>>41434 The first one seems fake to me because it mentions Sonic Blitz and a random Unleashed NPC for no reason.

>>41437 Fair point, we didn't know what Blitz was at the time and he was clearly trying to include that into his "leak"

Sonic Team seems to struggle with designing Open Zone levels and I can't really blame them. >How do you design a Sonic level that can be approached from all 360 directions? >What's the start point and the end goal in an open zone? >How do you incorporate platforming and Sonic terrain into all of this? >How would alternative routes even work in an open zone? Even I'm having a hard time solving these problems. How would you guys approach these issues?

>>41471 >>How do you design a Sonic level that can be approached from all 360 directions? Ask series like Tony Hawk, Matt Hoffman, Dave Mirra, and Skate. Or something like Katamari Damacy. >What's the start point and the end goal in an open zone? Every level has the same starting point, but different objectives. Basically going back to the missions-based gameplay last seen in SA1, SA2, Shadow, and '06. Scaler also had some similar ideas. Also you could make it about score attacking and the amount of tasks you need to accomplish with in the time limit, kind of like MadWorld except with fighting Badnicks, collecting rings, and doing other tasks. It could also be some combination of both and have each level have it's own evolving structure, which is the entire basis for battlefield games like Star Wars Battlefront and the Musou series.

>>41475 Taking inspiration from skating games is smart because they feature similar terrain to Sonic. The problem comes from adding platforming into it.

>>41476 >The problem comes from adding platforming into it. Take inspiration from things like Prince of Persia, Tomb Raider, Darksiders, Tron: Evolution...basically a lot of games known for their acrobatic platforming elements. Even look at games like Prototype, Bionic Commando, and the pre-2010 Spider-Man games.

>>41476 >>41477 Also, if I may, they can only make a full 3D open-world Sonic "work" if they made the controls less refined, like they were in the older games. If you want a perfect example of this, try taking all of the alternative routes in the Metal Harbor, Crazy Gadget, and Final Rush in SA2. If they stuck with the current formula, the game is going to suck because they currently take too much control away from the player.

>>41477 I don't know if this type of platforming would work with Sonic. How about putting Sonic stages into the Open Zone kinda like how Elden Ring did it with its legacy dungeons, or Bowser's Fury did it with its islands? Those Sonic levels would have similar level design to Utopia and SRB2 but they would be way shorter. I think Frontiers platforming sections had the perfect length but they were just too automated. It's hard to think of platforming sections that don't have a start and an end. >>41479 Frontiers controls are as tight as the ones from Adventure if you set steering sensitivity to 100 but they are both really janky to me. Unleashed and Generations have controls that feel way more solid to me. They would just have to make the turning way tighter which shouldn't be hard. >they currently take too much control away from the player. I don't think they add automation because the controls are dogshit. They use it because most people can't handle Sonic in 3D (e.g. The Final Horizon)

>>41480 >They use it because most people can't handle Sonic in 3D If that's going to be their mindset, then it's no wonder why we get shit games these days. Does anyone remember Raisin-Man's quote about how he made the game harder after the playtesters complained?

>>41471 He does have a point to be honest. I think he hits the nail on the head in that Sonic's format doesn't work so well for this, so the first question I have is why go in this direction, lol. You'd think they already have enough headaches with trying to create an interesting game without putting themselves in a tough spot like this. Probably you'd have to rework every aspect of Sonic to make it fit into that format, shoehorning it just won't work.

>>41483 I can't fault them because they aren't wrong about that. Most people suck at 3D Sonic. That's why Frontiers did so well as even if you fail a platforming section you won't fall into a death pit because there's always terrain below so you can approach Frontiers at your own pace.

>>41416 >>41418 >>41433 https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/682447210 July 11 2024 Doesn't mention Summit Spire, but it was posted by the same person who mentioned it for the first time https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/687823129 September 5 2024 First mention of Summit Spire https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/687888635/#687888635 September 5 2024 Second mention https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/690523081/#690523081 October 1 2024 Third mention Fake because it also gives wrong info on Sonic x Shadow Generations (a final story with Super Sonic and Super Shadow fighting "Doom Eater") https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/690966102 October 5 2024 Most recent mention I think these were all posted by the same person

>>41471 I think The Final Horizon is good, it just needs to look better, and it needs arcade modes for timed+ranked replayability, so it can be played like a normal Sonic game for those of us who want that. Basically I want high budget update 3 with the features of update 1

>>41485 >why go in this direction They wanted Sonic to sell better. They used Open world games as in inspiration because they are popular. I like the idea of "Open World Sonic" but it is hard to think of ways the Sonic elements should be implemented in an open world setting. It's easy to say "just make it a giant physics playground" but it's way more difficult to actually develop that idea.

Is this how Sonic Frontiers 2 should handle open zone platforming?

>>41501 The gameplay just looks like it's a faster Mario. Nothing really "Sonic" about it.

>>41503 I think that's fine because the rest of the Open Zone lacks platforming but that section would definitely be better if it was more physics-based

>>41501 I like it. Is it from the second update or is that a mod? I see the video has a mod for the HUD and I don't remember that section.

>>41503 >faster Mario I think you can say that about Kishimoto's level design in general. I don't think that's a bad thing either, it's just a different style

>>41507 That's a mod but there is a similar section on Chaos Island that was added in Update 2 but It's not as pretty. https://youtu.be/MFDR6urnTlk?si=0f2OMxE4UFzaxywR&t=90

>>41508 His favorite Sonic game is Sonic 1 and his favorite game of all time is Super Mario Bros. 3 so that makes a lot of sense.

>>41511 I didn't know about Sonic 1, where did he say that? Also I'm glad to hear that, Sonic 1 is underappreciated

>>41512 https://x.com/moq_46/status/1614140186400796674

>>41513 Thank you

>>41510 What is the mod called?

>>41515 Sonic Frontiers Revisited. It's not out yet tho.

>>41501 >>41510 It's crazy how much good environment art can change a level.

Should Frontiers 2 have a combat system?

>>41630 Combat was an important part of Frontiers, so I think Frontiers 2 should have combat. They should put more thought into it, though.

>>41633 How should they improve it? Frontiers has no concept of spacing and positioning because of the homing attack and the game planting you in front of the enemies while you float there playing attack animations. The combat works like that because Sonic's limbs are really stubby so he has like no range without those concessions.

>>41636 I don't really play games with a lot of fighting, so I can't say much, but I like some aspects of what they did with the boss rush in The Final Horizon, especially having to manage the meter for the instant cyloop attack.

>>41630 Yes, I'd love to have to put more thought into things than just spamming my most powerful attack. >>41636 Maybe a sort of rock paper scissors system like Heroes had. Three types of enemies, each handled best by a different type of attack. Though I haven't played enough fighting games to know about other combat systems that would work.

>>41515 >>41516 They started posting pic related on xitter

>>41636 Go all in on spectacle fighting, add a ranking system like DMC and have the focus be on keeping your combo up, maybe more enemies to give it a more frantic feel of just weaving through enemies.

>>41726 >add a ranking system like DMC and have the focus be on keeping your combo up That's how Phantom Rush should have worked! That mechanic would be so much better if it required you to vary your attacks in order to fill up the Phantom Rush gauge. >maybe more enemies to give it a more frantic feel of just weaving through enemies. That would require strong defensive options and the removal of the parry because you could just parry all the enemy attacks without having to move. Though that could be also solved by giving enemies attacks that cannot be parried (like the attacks with the yellow flash in MGR Revengeance) Also, moving targets can be difficult to hit when your attacks have short range which would be a problem since Sonic's normal attacks are pretty stubby.

>>41727 Easy enough, they already experimented with a perfect parry, they just need to tweak it a bit more and it'll work with a more combo oriented system, maybe have a dodge with a similar counter if you time it right. >moving targets can be difficult to hit when your attacks have short range which would be a problem since Sonic's normal attacks are pretty stubby. That's what the homing attack could be for, maybe have a reticle that you can switch around during combat?

>>41729 >That's what the homing attack could be for I agree but I think there should be more attacks for poking enemies. Maybe Sonic's kicks and punches could have wind effects around them to extend their hitboxes. Would that be too visually unclear? I think attacks that would move Sonic forward could also extend Sonic's range.

I really hope Frontiers 2 winds up with a more creative title than Frontiers 2.

I really hope Frontiers 2 winds.

>>41943 Frontiers 2 will end up like Mania 2.

>>41943 I doubt it will be titled "Sonic Frontiers 2"

Frontiers 2 better still be on last gen consoles, I absolutely resfuse to buy a PS5 or Shitch 2 and I'm not putting up with Denuvo on a PC release.

>>41997 Shit, I forgot now it's a lot harder to pirate stuff.

>>41998 >Every game from TSR onwards remains uncracked due to Denuvo, with people pirating the Switch port instead. If the Switch 2 doesn't get hacked in the next couple years, we'll be in a bit of a pickle once Sonic Team stops supporting the Switch. I guess you can mod the levels from the new games into the old ones, but that can only take you so far.

>>42001 The world continues to go to shit in ways previously thought impossible. Even with a Switch emulator, honestly the experience is pretty poor. I remember when Sega started to compulsively add Denuvo to every Sonic game and it just felt as a way to spite the players since it really didn't make much of a difference and only pissed people off. How things have changed...

>>26123 Just for it not to look like some guys shit unreal engine demo.

Why was the update 3 level design so hated? I genuinely hope they will keep it in the sequel.

>>42066 >Why was the update 3 level design so hated? Because it was too challenging for the bulk of Online Sonic Fans. If you watch reviews of the DLC with gameplay, you'll see that the reviewers' enjoyment of the DLC is directly correlated with their skill. I hope they keep it too, but given how Sonic Team has cucked to negative feedback in the past, I wouldn't count on it. >>42064 I hope they keep the Hedgehog Engine, seeing Kronos in UE5 in Crossworlds makes it somehow look even worse.

>>42066 I think Utopia has better level design. It's much more free-form and allows you to just chill and have fun with the physics.

>>42066 Because it was challenging. Personally I loved it. Although I still haven't completed all the side challenges, and that's partially because of a major flaw with the game. The pop in. It's hard to tell where the platforming challenges start and end, especially for Tails.

DaisukeDoi, who is a pretty big figure in the Sonic community, has been invited to playtest Sega and Atlus games and he got to talk with Iizuka. Here's what he said in the SIC discord server: >Frontiers 2 doesn't exist >All the Frontiers concepts were scrapped >The next Sonic game doubles down on the Cyberspace stages >It's worse than all the new Sega and Atlus games >Iizuka has a nice handshake >Iizuka likes the SA2 Rouge design >Iizuka seen the Sonic mediocrity bowl meme >Iizuka seen the Sonic character design google doc Thoughts?

>>42155 >DaisukeDoi I have never heard of this person before, but at this point I don't think of Sonic Team as something that acts with logic so I don't think it's impossible they wouldn't continue with what Frontiers started. They have had to fall back to what works before so that part at least would make sense. I can see something like Frontiers but with more polish being way above the budgets they manage and them being unwilling to make it because of it.

>>42155 >Shadow Gens' White Space was designed to appeal to fans of Frontiers >Every game Sonic Team made since Frontiers has reused Frontiers' assets >Iizuka said Frontiers was the future of 3D Sonic Never heard of this guy so I don't know how credible this is, but I seriously doubt Sonic Team would immediately throw out a formula that was previously well received especially when everything else seems to indicate otherwise.

>>42157 >Never heard of this guy so I don't know how credible this is DaisukeDoi is a mod for SFGHQ and he hosts SAGExpo. > I seriously doubt Sonic Team would immediately throw out a formula that was previously well received I dunno. They already did that multiple times before so I don't see why they wouldn't do that again. Sonic Team loves to """innovate""" after all.

>>42158 >DaisukeDoi is a mod for SFGHQ and he hosts SAGExpo. That does lend him some credibility. >They already did that multiple times before so I don't see why they wouldn't do that again. Each previous time they threw out a successful formula had a reason that made sense in context. >They didn't make any more 2D Sonic games after S3K because Naka didn't want to make more 2D Sonic games after Sonic 2 and 3K's hellish developments >They didn't make another Adventure game after SA2 because they wanted to appeal to a broader demographic when going multiplatform >They didn't want to make any more boost games after Gens because they were expensive to make and the people who had made them no longer worked at Sonic Team So, what reason would they have for jettisoning the Open World?

>>42155 >DaisukeDoi Never heard of this person before and I have no idea why we should believe him. Where is this from? What are those screenshots? None of this is making any sense.

>>42160 Sega invited him to a market test because he signed up to Sega Insights Lab and he posted about that on the South Island Central discord server.

>>42163 Shouldn't he be under an NDA or something

>>42155 The only part I believe is Sonic Team getting shafted by SEGA, that's par for the course.

>>42164 >Shouldn't he be under an NDA or something >mfw some people don't give a damn.

>>42164 He is. That's why he wasn't very specific about the game. Also, I don't think talking about Iizuka's handshake was a part of the NDA.

>>42169 But he supposedly gave details on "Frontiers 2"

>>42170 I think he was vague enough about it. He didn't mention any specific game mechanics or plot points, just the general direction of the game.

>>42155 What would Daisuke Doi consider to be a good Sonic game?

>>42195 Advance 3 is one of his favorite Sonic games